Nelson in Africa

Public forum for topics that don't fit into the other categories.
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mom3
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Re: Nelson in Africa

Post by mom3 » 17 Apr 2018, 10:31

I knew the other shoe would drop. This is the man I was expecting. I refuse to say more.
"I stayed because it was God and Jesus Christ that I wanted to follow and be like, not individual human beings." Chieko Okazaki Dialogue interview

"I am coming to envision a new persona for the Church as humble followers of Jesus Christ....Joseph and his early followers came forth with lots of triumphalist rhetoric, but I think we need a new voice, one of humility, friendship and service. We should teach people to believe in God because it will soften their hearts and make them more willing to serve." - Richard Bushman

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nibbler
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Re: Nelson in Africa

Post by nibbler » 17 Apr 2018, 10:36

LookingHard wrote:
17 Apr 2018, 08:05
I 100% agree that it stinks that the financial books are generally closed, but some countries require the books be open. I think I saw reports that the church is sending/spending more money in the UK than they are bringing in.
I can get pretty cynical on this subject. Some countries do require that the church be fiscally open but not enough countries require this for it to make a difference. The church is large enough to where they can employ clever accounting to make the portion that they are required to be open about tell any story they'd like to tell. Canada requires open books? Well we'll just make the whole of Canada's contributions go towards BYU, it's hard to be critical about expenses that go towards higher education (even if they are subsidizing education in a different country :? ). This frees up contributions from countries where they are not required to be open to use however they'd like. They can put whatever face they'd like to put on the numbers.

That said, I imagine most countries cost they church far more than what the bring in.
LookingHard wrote:
17 Apr 2018, 08:05
But even if you believe in temples, doesn't it make sense to make 10 smaller temples at $1M each rather than one $10M temple? It will give much more access to poor people that can have a real hard time traveling long distances, but will not be the same showcase building that says, "look how great our church is!"
What's more important, the temples or the ordinances? Once upon a time in church history we performed what are now temple only ordinances but outside of the temple. Our buildings see relatively little use. We could leverage our existing buildings to do those ordinances. Dedicate a stake center or a portion of a stake center for one week per quarter to perform ordinances. We could have 1000 'temples' overnight.

But this is all assuming that money is tight. Why not make ten $10M temples when you're rolling in money? I mean, look at how much the costs of the Provo City Center temple, the City Creek Center, temple in Rome, etc. projects cost. Churches that are hurting for capital don't do those sorts of things. Or it could be an appearances thing.

But building 10 temples that cost $1M each spread all over does do one important thing - create jobs. There is that.
If one dream dies, dream another dream. If you get knocked down, get back up and go again.
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mom3
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Re: Nelson in Africa

Post by mom3 » 17 Apr 2018, 10:53

Nibbler wrote - Our buildings see relatively little use. We could leverage our existing buildings to do those ordinances. Dedicate a stake center or a portion of a stake center for one week per quarter to perform ordinances. We could have 1000 'temples' overnight.
I have been on that bandwagon for years. Struggling families could eat, live and function. Less stories of starving your children, walking for miles to save gas money for the temple travel fund.

If we can make Stake Centers "Holy Ground" for temple dedications, why not have quarterly Temple Weekends or Weeks. Then you wouldn't have to spend all the extra money or wait for the building.
"I stayed because it was God and Jesus Christ that I wanted to follow and be like, not individual human beings." Chieko Okazaki Dialogue interview

"I am coming to envision a new persona for the Church as humble followers of Jesus Christ....Joseph and his early followers came forth with lots of triumphalist rhetoric, but I think we need a new voice, one of humility, friendship and service. We should teach people to believe in God because it will soften their hearts and make them more willing to serve." - Richard Bushman

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LookingHard
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Re: Nelson in Africa

Post by LookingHard » 17 Apr 2018, 13:55

DarkJedi wrote:
17 Apr 2018, 08:37
I'm waiting for Curt to stop by and give his perspective so I can at least see the possibility of something positive here.
Way to put the pressure on Curt! :-)

Curt - You can not say anything at all (which would be saying something).

Roy
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Re: Nelson in Africa

Post by Roy » 17 Apr 2018, 15:54

mom3 wrote:
17 Apr 2018, 10:31
I knew the other shoe would drop. This is the man I was expecting. I refuse to say more.
I suppose I feel that much improvement would be done if many adopted the Mormon cultural focus on family. The priesthood role and having men lead their families spiritually would also be an improvement.

As some others have said the practice of tithing and ending the dowry could logically improve the lot of many. I thought I heard something about dowrys significantly delaying marriages which in turn results in breaches of chastity - both things the church would want to avoid.

I vote to give President Nelson a pass on this one.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13

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mom3
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Re: Nelson in Africa

Post by mom3 » 17 Apr 2018, 16:01

Roy wrote - I suppose I feel that much improvement would be done if many adopted the Mormon cultural focus on family. The priesthood role and having men lead their families spiritually would also be an improvement.
That part I don't mind. I don't mind the dowry change - I mind the implication that tithing will solve these problems. I know people who have paid faithful tithing and had a miserable life, financially, health wise, etc.

Tithing is not a be all end all answer.

He didn't spend the talk heavily weighted on family. He spent it on funding.

That is my gripe. For many of them they give up meals, cars, family time because they have to walk to work without the car or the gas for the car, so they can pay that tithing, so they can be recommend worthy.
"I stayed because it was God and Jesus Christ that I wanted to follow and be like, not individual human beings." Chieko Okazaki Dialogue interview

"I am coming to envision a new persona for the Church as humble followers of Jesus Christ....Joseph and his early followers came forth with lots of triumphalist rhetoric, but I think we need a new voice, one of humility, friendship and service. We should teach people to believe in God because it will soften their hearts and make them more willing to serve." - Richard Bushman

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Beefster
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Re: Nelson in Africa

Post by Beefster » 17 Apr 2018, 16:04

^ that

I think good points have been made about the ending of dowries and I totally agree.

I just don't like it when tithing is presented as a financial panacea. It isn't. To suggest that it is tithing that brings people out of poverty is not something I see empirical evidence to support. The faith-promoting stories shared over the pulpit are anecdotal evidence and are not representative of the whole.

At best, Nelson breaks even.
Boys are governed by rules. Men are governed by principles.

Sometimes our journeys take us to unexpected places. That is a truly beautiful thing.

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Ilovechrist77
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Re: Nelson in Africa

Post by Ilovechrist77 » 17 Apr 2018, 16:59

I don't mind paying tithing, even living solely on Social Security Disability, but I do think it's wrong when it's taught that people should pay tithing, even when people have to choose between paying it or paying for necessities. That is irresponsible. I would hope Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ, the Heavenly Father, would agree with me. I know Christ, in the New Testament, said to the rich man to sell all he had to poor and come and follow Him. I hope He didn't mean to neglect his physical needs. But I could be wrong.

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LDS_Scoutmaster
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Re: Nelson in Africa

Post by LDS_Scoutmaster » 17 Apr 2018, 17:15

I always breaks my heart a little when I here of people sacrificing so much to go to the temple, travel to church, go to a meeting somewhere in a distant land; and then asked to sacrifice more.

We left the Catholic Church for just that reason.

I understand what he is saying, and I agree that sacrifice can 'open the windows of heaven' / make you a stronger person / add whatever qualifier you want onto the end there. I hope that the sacrifices they have already made are acknowledged and respected.
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=6311&start=70#p121051 My last talk

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Beefster
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Re: Nelson in Africa

Post by Beefster » 17 Apr 2018, 19:25

Ilovechrist77 wrote:
17 Apr 2018, 16:59
I don't mind paying tithing, even living solely on Social Security Disability, but I do think it's wrong when it's taught that people should pay tithing, even when people have to choose between paying it or paying for necessities. That is irresponsible. I would hope Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ, the Heavenly Father, would agree with me. I know Christ, in the New Testament, said to the rich man to sell all he had to poor and come and follow Him. I hope He didn't mean to neglect his physical needs. But I could be wrong.
This.

Tithing has never been an issue for me financially. I could pay on gross right now (even retroactively, I think) and I would be just fine. I take issue more with where it's going and the rhetoric used to get it out of me.
Boys are governed by rules. Men are governed by principles.

Sometimes our journeys take us to unexpected places. That is a truly beautiful thing.

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