Rediscovering a new Godhead...

For the discussion of spirituality -- from LDS and non-LDS sources
User avatar
Beefster
Posts: 487
Joined: 04 Aug 2017, 18:38

Rediscovering a new Godhead...

Post by Beefster » 12 Mar 2018, 07:56

I've somewhat recently been questioning if there really is a Holy Spirit. It never really jived well with me that a member of the Godhead would elect to forgo his body for some time to be the omnipresent one. And wouldn't spirits still be material and humanoid (and thus not be able to be omnipresent) under Joseph Smith doctrines?

What if the Holy Ghost is not a personage at all, but just an influence that can be felt throughout the universe? Some call it "the universe", some call it "God." What if there is no "Holy Ghost" and it's all just the "Light of Christ"?

I've come to believe that Heavenly Mother plays a bigger divine role than we ever talk about in the church. Maybe she's a full-blown member of the Godhead. Perhaps her primary responsibility is somewhere other than mortal life, but I believe her divinity and power are equal to that of Heavenly Father.

So basically, I'm starting to believe that it's not "The Father, The Son, and The Holy Ghost", but really "The Father, The Mother, and The Son"

I guess this could potentially classify as the worst sin possible under LDS theology (denying the Holy Ghost). :shock: I guess this makes me a full-blown heretic/apostate.
Boys are governed by rules. Men are governed by principles.

Sometimes our journeys take us to unexpected places. That is a truly beautiful thing.

Roy
Posts: 5118
Joined: 07 Oct 2010, 14:16
Location: Pacific Northwest

Re: Rediscovering a new Godhead...

Post by Roy » 12 Mar 2018, 12:22

I am not convinced that the Holy Ghost/Holy Spirit was thought to be a person in Jesus's time. The way it is described in the NT could be synonymous with "spirit of God". In Lectures on Faith (possibly written by JS but at very least written with his knowledge and approval) the Holy Ghost/Holy Spirit is said to be the "shared mind" of Jesus and HF. The doctrine certainly evolved and still leaves unanswered questions to this day.
Beefster wrote:
12 Mar 2018, 07:56
So basically, I'm starting to believe that it's not "The Father, The Son, and The Holy Ghost", but really "The Father, The Mother, and The Son"
I was perusing a book called something like, "When God was female". it made the case that the Judeo-Christian religion was in part a response to and a rejection of the goddess worship that was prevalent in the OT years. It says that because the Jehovah followers were competing with the Goddess religions - they made a point to demonize them and set themselves up as the opposition religion. Most interesting of all, the book traces how the male centric focus of the Jehovah church became enshrined in western society and laws. It is interesting to speculate how things might have been different if we as a society had historically worshipped a heavenly couple of equal partner parents.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13

User avatar
dande48
Posts: 1118
Joined: 24 Jan 2016, 16:35
Location: Wherever there is danger

Re: Rediscovering a new Godhead...

Post by dande48 » 12 Mar 2018, 13:05

What if the Holy Ghost IS Heavenly Mother? :shock:
"The whole world is a comedy to those that think, a tragedy to those that feel." - Horace Walpole

"Even though there are no ways of knowing for sure, there are ways of knowing for pretty sure."
-Lemony Snicket

User avatar
Always Thinking
Posts: 181
Joined: 29 Dec 2015, 11:46

Re: Rediscovering a new Godhead...

Post by Always Thinking » 12 Mar 2018, 13:57

dande48 wrote:What if the Holy Ghost IS Heavenly Mother? :shock:
Dh and I have played with this idea, as I know others have. It would make sense as the holy ghost is the comforter and is there to speak to us. It sounds better than a Mother in Heaven who is never allowed to speak to us or be near us. What kind of life is that for a mother? I also don't think the Holy Ghost necessarily has to be a personage of spirit to be able to speak to our spirits. Gods are omnipotent after all, who's to say the Holy Ghost HAS to be a spirit in order to speak to us? Why can't an all powerful God or Goddess speak to us directly. I enjoy exploring all the possible options for the godhead now that my beliefs aren't structured with the churchs' set up anymore. There are so many more options than I used to think!

User avatar
dande48
Posts: 1118
Joined: 24 Jan 2016, 16:35
Location: Wherever there is danger

Re: Rediscovering a new Godhead...

Post by dande48 » 12 Mar 2018, 19:46

Here's an apostatic... apostolic... idea:

Many of the old religions have two primary, ancient dieties. In ancient Greece, there's the sky god (Uranus), and the earth god (Gaia). And from them, all the gods, and ultimately all of creation was born. Even better, the two gods were considered equal co-creators. And Joseph Smith, as well as the Lamanites, the Zao, the Hindu's, etc, stated that the earth and everything on it has a spirit. What if that spirit, earth mother, which resonates within each and every one of us, is Heavenly Mother?

It completely goes against the anthopomorphic God we are taught to believe in, and the eternal state of all mankind. But on the other hand, we are taught that God speaks to us in a language we can understand... and the things of eternity and Godhood are almost certainly beyond human comprehension.
"The whole world is a comedy to those that think, a tragedy to those that feel." - Horace Walpole

"Even though there are no ways of knowing for sure, there are ways of knowing for pretty sure."
-Lemony Snicket

User avatar
Beefster
Posts: 487
Joined: 04 Aug 2017, 18:38

Re: Rediscovering a new Godhead...

Post by Beefster » 12 Mar 2018, 22:11

That's an interesting perspective. With that, eternal gender goes completely out the window, which solves a few issues.

I think I'll stick to my anthropomorphic corporeal Gods (though not because I'm attached the concept of gender), but that's a perspective worth considering.

... Then again... Maybe you're onto something. I'm going to have to marinate on it.
Boys are governed by rules. Men are governed by principles.

Sometimes our journeys take us to unexpected places. That is a truly beautiful thing.

User avatar
DarkJedi
Posts: 6078
Joined: 24 Aug 2013, 20:53

Re: Rediscovering a new Godhead...

Post by DarkJedi » 13 Mar 2018, 06:05

I think a lot of us have struggled with the LDS version of God and our own experiences during and after faith crisis. I have said this many times here, during my faith crisis I came to doubt there was a God. Post faith crisis I believe there is, but my God is very different from common perceived LDS version and more so than just the fast and testimony meeting version.

I believe there is a creator. I also believe there is some sort of spiritual influencer/comforter/guide/whathaveyou that is active and not just among Mormons (in other words we do not have a monopoly on the Holy Ghost). I get where the Trinitarian churches get their ideas about God from, and I'm not convinced they're wrong, but there are a couple things that make me believe they're not completely right either (Jesus's baptism, for example). When I began to emerge from crisis mode I only believed there was a Creator/God, saw little need for a Savior, and flat out still doubted a Holy Ghost. In truth the jury is still out on all of it as far as I'm concerned. Whether God the Creator is also the Holy Ghost and maybe even the Savior is still up in the air, although I do have a testimony (of unknown origin) that there is a Savior, or at least that God is forgiving and merciful.

Just to say it, I do believe Joseph Smith had a profound spiritual experience in what is called the first vision. I'm not sure exactly what he saw, and he didn't, to my knowledge, assert the the "two personages" (depending on the version) were Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ. Even if he did and they were, it was a vision and does not prove God/Jesus have physical bodies of flesh and bone - they appeared to look like us, however.

Lastly, the gender thing. I have heard the Heavenly Mother/Holy Ghost idea many times before, and it may have some merit. On the other hand, I'm not sure spirits do have gender, partly because I'm not sure why they'd need to. I'm actually OK with genderless spirits because, as Beefster points out, genderless spirits do solve some issues.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

My Introduction

AmyJ
Posts: 775
Joined: 27 Jul 2017, 05:50

Re: Rediscovering a new Godhead...

Post by AmyJ » 13 Mar 2018, 08:02

DarkJedi wrote:
13 Mar 2018, 06:05
Lastly, the gender thing. I have heard the Heavenly Mother/Holy Ghost idea many times before, and it may have some merit. On the other hand, I'm not sure spirits do have gender, partly because I'm not sure why they'd need to. I'm actually OK with genderless spirits because, as Beefster points out, genderless spirits do solve some issues.
I feel that collectively, our narrative needs to include gender. What we are learning about genetics and genetic traits points out that from the second that from the time that the new DNA is finalized and created, reactions are triggered based on gender. If there is gender confusion (caused by nature and/or nurture) there is crises on behalf of the individual and/or members of the society who interact with that individual. Some of the weirdest looks I have gotten have been when I put my all-pink girl toddler in a blue stroller, or the awkwardness of gender when I dress my girl toddler in gender-neutral or a blue outfit. One of the most interesting studies I watched was how studies showed that when a caregiver knew that the toddler practicing climbing was a boy, more was expected of the toddler - and the caregiver encouraged the toddler to challenge himself and keep trying to climb. Where if that same caregiver knew the child was a girl, the caregiver would reassure the toddler more and not encourage the toddler to climb as much.

So the default position is to apply gender to God(s) - either by setting up God as a "Perfect" example of the gender assigned (Father Time, Sky God, or Gaia are examples with Mary hedging into that pantheon), or by being more open and flexible about gender and whether it matters such as is my understanding of some of the Hindu representations.

User avatar
SamBee
Posts: 5049
Joined: 14 Mar 2010, 04:55

Re: Rediscovering a new Godhead...

Post by SamBee » 14 Mar 2018, 13:16

This idea is heretical but old. For some the Holy Ghost is Hagia Sophia (holy wisdom - note the female gender in the Greek).
DASH1730 "An Area Authority...[was] asked...who...would go to the Telestial kingdom. His answer: "murderers, adulterers and a lot of surprised Mormons!"'
1ST PRES 1978 "[LDS] believe...there is truth in many religions and philosophies...good and great religious leaders... have raised the spiritual, moral, and ethical awareness of their people. When we speak of The [LDS] as the only true church...it is...authorized to administer the ordinances...by Jesus Christ... we do not mean... it is the only teacher of truth."

Curt Sunshine
Site Admin
Posts: 16131
Joined: 21 Oct 2008, 20:24

Re: Rediscovering a new Godhead...

Post by Curt Sunshine » 14 Mar 2018, 18:04

There is nothing heretical in a Father, Mother, Son view - as long as the Holy Ghost is accepted as a "real" entity of some kind. Sure, what we believe might be unorthodox, but it isn't heretical.

I like the Heavenly Parents terminology that has become more popular lately from the top leadership. Using it still creates serious issues (like fundamentalist sexism), but it does leave the door open for movement toward true equality. For that same reason, I like to think of The Son being married to The Daughter (and Jesus being married in mortality, although I can't assert with confidence it happened, given his obvious ties to the Nazarenes), however that gets interpreted.

I don't focus on "The Godhead" as much as on a "Council of the Gods" - or, in OT terminology, simply "The Gods".
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

Post Reply