FP under RMN Presidency

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Beefster
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Re: FP under RMN Presidency

Post by Beefster » 08 Jan 2018, 18:32

I don't care what he does with HBE as long as he keeps DFU in the presidency. DHO and DAB wouldn't be great, but I could probably deal with it.

I hope we get a Black African Apostle and an Asian Apostle. It's a little surfacy, but I think the church needs an international/globalist perspective right now. It also doesn't hurt to have a little extra diversity for the critics of the church.

My hopes with a RMN presidency is that the church opens Mainland China for missionary work and actually having branches/wards and stakes/districts. I'm not sure if that's a close thing politically, but I'm hoping for it anyway.

Women and the priesthood? Maybe. I'm not really sure who still needs to die for that, if anyone. If that's actually where it's supposed to go. (I hope it is)
Boys are governed by rules. Men are governed by principles.

Often I hear doubt being presented as the opposite of faith but I think certainty does a better job of filling that role. Doubts can help faith grow, certainty almost always makes faith shrink. --nibbler

squarepeg
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Re: FP under RMN Presidency

Post by squarepeg » 08 Jan 2018, 20:56

Beefster wrote:
08 Jan 2018, 18:32
I don't care what he does with HBE as long as he keeps DFU in the presidency. DHO and DAB wouldn't be great, but I could probably deal with it.

I hope we get a Black African Apostle and an Asian Apostle. It's a little surfacy, but I think the church needs an international/globalist perspective right now. It also doesn't hurt to have a little extra diversity for the critics of the church.
I'm right there with you. I hope for women to be given the Priesthood, although I feel like that may still be a ways off. I feel like I already have It, personally. I used the Lord's power last night to heal my son's fever. :shock: :silent: But it would be nice to have it officially acknowledged.

I echo your hope of retaining Uchtdorf in the First Presidency!!

I hope, too, for more international representation in the Q12, but I'm also wondering if there's resistance to it because last time the Church put an Asian person in a General Presidency she said beautiful, dangerous things like this:

Image

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LookingHard
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Re: FP under RMN Presidency

Post by LookingHard » 08 Jan 2018, 20:59

Beefster wrote:
08 Jan 2018, 18:32
My hopes with a RMN presidency is that the church opens Mainland China for missionary work and actually having branches/wards and stakes/districts. I'm not sure if that's a close thing politically, but I'm hoping for it anyway.
I have a friend that just got back from living in Shanghai. He said that every single Sunday they start sacrament meeting telling everyone that they are there under the privileged of the government with the stipulation they do no proselyting at all while they are in China. This is read again at the end of the meeting. Interesting. There are so many political issues going on that I don't see China opening up to this right now. My $0.02.

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Beefster
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Re: FP under RMN Presidency

Post by Beefster » 08 Jan 2018, 22:41

Things can change. A heck of a lot changed in the Catholic church when it got Pope Francis, so who knows?

I'd bet on RMN at least making some headway on the issue.
squarepeg wrote:
08 Jan 2018, 20:56
I'm right there with you. I hope for women to be given the Priesthood, although I feel like that may still be a ways off. I feel like I already have It, personally. I used the Lord's power last night to heal my son's fever. :shock: :silent: But it would be nice to have it officially acknowledged.
What's weird is that it used to be common for women to give blessings of healing in the early church. It wasn't done with priesthood authority, but it was still the power of God. Somewhere along the line, this was discouraged and it faded into obscurity. That leaves me scratching my head. The early church was, strangely, leaps and bounds ahead of most institutions at the time when it came to women's rights, but now it lags behind somewhat. Funny how that happens.

In priesthood sessions, there have been a number of talks on the priesthood power vs priesthood authority and I suppose you probably have priesthood power through various means and righteous living. You have yet to receive the priesthood authority, and TBH, I think that really only stops you from taking part in official ordinances. I think the laying on of hands for healing from those without priesthood authority is frowned upon, but there's nothing stopping you from that either. I just don't think you can use oil.

I would be surprised if women didn't get some form of priesthood authority in the eternities. The only way I could see women not getting the priesthood in mortality ever is if the female priesthood is fundamentally different. Perhaps it pertains more to the spirit body (whereas the male priesthood corresponds to the physical body), but that's just a speculative possibility.
Boys are governed by rules. Men are governed by principles.

Often I hear doubt being presented as the opposite of faith but I think certainty does a better job of filling that role. Doubts can help faith grow, certainty almost always makes faith shrink. --nibbler

nibbler
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Re: FP under RMN Presidency

Post by nibbler » 09 Jan 2018, 08:00

Re: Ordain women.

I got to thinking. Scenario: The Tuesday after RMN is made the president of the church he comes out with a policy ordaining women to the priesthood... and I win the powerball without even buying a lotto ticket and the Browns win a football game.

How would women be represented in the Q12? There are currently two vacancies, I suppose both vacancies could be filled by a woman. If so, there would be 13 men and 2 women in the Q15. The women would be the most junior apostles, and if Renlund lives to a similar age as current top leaders that means it could be 25 to 30 years before a woman could get some seniority in the quorum and probably that long or longer before the ratio of men to women approached 50:50 because they wouldn't likely call 6 women in a row to balance things out, new positions would be filled by men and women as slots opened up.

Unless they shook things up majorly. Overhauled succession rules, released apostles, etc.

A thought experiment. Nothing more.

AmyJ
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Re: FP under RMN Presidency

Post by AmyJ » 09 Jan 2018, 09:18

Beefster wrote:
08 Jan 2018, 22:41
What's weird is that it used to be common for women to give blessings of healing in the early church. It wasn't done with priesthood authority, but it was still the power of God. Somewhere along the line, this was discouraged and it faded into obscurity. That leaves me scratching my head. The early church was, strangely, leaps and bounds ahead of most institutions at the time when it came to women's rights, but now it lags behind somewhat. Funny how that happens.
My child-bearing days are probably done, but I would have loved to have a sister give me a blessing because I was going to have a baby - just as our brethren give their children blessings when they are starting school. My husband did give me individual blessings as needed during that time - but it is not the same.

I don't specifically want to be ordained - I just would like to return to women giving blessings, and a recognition that what we need as sisters is not necessarily always what the brethren need as well. I feel that they design the programs for the brethren, and the sisters get a nod of different needs with the R.S. program - but note that for the last 25 years both the R.S. and Priesthood lessons have been "correlated" or standardized to meet the needs of the brethren.
Beefster wrote:
08 Jan 2018, 22:41
In priesthood sessions, there have been a number of talks on the priesthood power vs priesthood authority and I suppose you probably have priesthood power through various means and righteous living. You have yet to receive the priesthood authority, and TBH, I think that really only stops you from taking part in official ordinances. I think the laying on of hands for healing from those without priesthood authority is frowned upon, but there's nothing stopping you from that either. I just don't think you can use oil.

I would be surprised if women didn't get some form of priesthood authority in the eternities. The only way I could see women not getting the priesthood in mortality ever is if the female priesthood is fundamentally different. Perhaps it pertains more to the spirit body (whereas the male priesthood corresponds to the physical body), but that's just a speculative possibility.
I feel that will be given as much "priesthood authority" as the church (with male-dominated leadership) is comfortable handing off to women and the leadership sees a point to bestow. I feel the situation is complicated by the principle that men generally think/talk in hierarchies, and women think/talk in networks (Studies done in this area by Deborah Tannen). An important part of hierarchies is who-can-do-what-and-why, and an important part of networks is what-needs-to-be-done-and-how-do-we-accomplish it.

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Beefster
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Re: FP under RMN Presidency

Post by Beefster » 09 Jan 2018, 17:42

I personally have an appreciation for the church's recognition that men and women are fundamentally different. I sorta get why some women feel cheated, but I also sorta get why other women don't really want to have to deal with having the priesthood. At least clinically. I don't have the slightest idea what it's like to be a woman, so there's only so far my empathy can take me.

I like your thoughts on networks vs hierarchies. It vaguely reminds me of the waffles vs spaghetti analogy for men vs women and how they think.

I would love to have women in baby blessing circles. I think most women would really love that.

I just wonder how men's needs and women's needs would be separately tended to with women getting the priesthood. I wonder if their roles would be different within the priesthood. I suspect we'd still have Priesthood/RS meetings, just by different names.
Boys are governed by rules. Men are governed by principles.

Often I hear doubt being presented as the opposite of faith but I think certainty does a better job of filling that role. Doubts can help faith grow, certainty almost always makes faith shrink. --nibbler

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On Own Now
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Re: FP under RMN Presidency

Post by On Own Now » 12 Jan 2018, 17:41

Now that we are getting closer (FP to be announced either tomorrow or Monday), I'll pull out a few of the things I've been thinking this week.

I'm thinking more and more that RMN moves DFU to 1st Counselor and promotes a new, younger Apostle to fill the 2nd Counselor. It just makes sense to bring (relative) youth into the FP since at 93, we can assume RMN won't be as vigorous as he might have been a few years ago, and he would surely recognize that limitation. Here are all the Apostles as 'young' or younger than DFU, in order of age:

- QLCook (77) - I like him, but he's not expressly dynamic and isn't enough younger than HBE to justify without having any punch.

- JRH (77) - Please, no. Many love him, but I'm sure you all know I just think of him as angry. To me, he seems way older than 77.

- DTC (72) - I like D Todd, and at 13 years younger than HBE, I think that would be a good trade. He has more of the FP Presence.

- RARasband (66) - Energetic man. I like him because of his every-man quality, but that attribute might also be harder to accept into the FP.

- NLAndersen (66) - while not my favorite, strikes me as being the most LIKE RMN. His demeanor is the same, and he's a retrencher, just like the new main man. If RMN reaches into the lower echelon of the Q12, he could pick the mirror image of himself.

- DAB (65) - we've talked about him earlier. He is the obvious choice because he's a near shoe-in to rise to at least near the top anyway. DAB Has a PhD in Organizational Behavior, which would be useful at the top of the Church. Interestingly, DAB has the least Utah connection of anyone in this list. He is from California, attended BYU, during which time he married his wife, but after BYU, lived outside of Utah until his call as an Apostle.

- DGRenlund (65) - He is also a heart surgeon. In fact, I'd be surprised if it wasn't RMN who nominated DGR for the Q12. I imagine the two probably had a lot to talk about personally before his call to the Q12.

-GEStevenson (62) - He would definitely bring gravitas into the FP. Is already a known administrative success, having been the Presiding Bishop, so he'd likely be a big help.
"Let us therefore no longer pass judgment on one another, but resolve instead never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of another." --Romans 14:13

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SamBee
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Re: FP under RMN Presidency

Post by SamBee » 13 Jan 2018, 08:15

LookingHard wrote:
08 Jan 2018, 20:59
Beefster wrote:
08 Jan 2018, 18:32
My hopes with a RMN presidency is that the church opens Mainland China for missionary work and actually having branches/wards and stakes/districts. I'm not sure if that's a close thing politically, but I'm hoping for it anyway.
I have a friend that just got back from living in Shanghai. He said that every single Sunday they start sacrament meeting telling everyone that they are there under the privileged of the government with the stipulation they do no proselyting at all while they are in China. This is read again at the end of the meeting. Interesting. There are so many political issues going on that I don't see China opening up to this right now. My $0.02.
It's not actually likely - the mighty Catholic Church can't pull it off. All religions in China have to be under the control of the state. The only way round this would be to have a "second true church" which would be officially separate from us.
DASH1730 "An Area Authority...[was] asked...who...would go to the Telestial kingdom. His answer: "murderers, adulterers and a lot of surprised Mormons!"'
1ST PRES 1978 "[LDS] believe...there is truth in many religions and philosophies...good and great religious leaders... have raised the spiritual, moral, and ethical awareness of their people. When we speak of The [LDS] as the only true church...it is...authorized to administer the ordinances...by Jesus Christ... we do not mean... it is the only teacher of truth."

nibbler
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Re: FP under RMN Presidency

Post by nibbler » 13 Jan 2018, 09:42


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