No other success can compensate for failure in the home

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SilentDawning
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No other success can compensate for failure in the home

Post by SilentDawning » 13 Nov 2017, 17:49

Saw this quote given in, of all places, a book about serial killers and the Mormon Mafia, a set of Mormon FBI agents nicknamed by that name. The author indicated one of the agents had the subject line of this thread on his desk or wall.

Got me thinking of how harsh that statement is. How damaging to self-esteem. I have two children. One turned out to be a model person -- married in the temple, a good kid and young adult. The other is good hearted, but not at all interested in church. I haven 't invested as much in my second one as my first, partly because he is resistant to good things I would like to do with him, and refuses to do things. I offer to do things all the time but he refuses.

But to then say that all the other achievements in my life can't somehow compensate for my loss of happiness in seeing my second child not meet the full potential I would like to see, is rather punitive and destructive. I know what the quote is getting at -- don't let your job or other interests eclipse your goal of a successful home. But what about those times when you try your best and the home still isn't successful? What do you have to fall back on?

Perhaps we need to define what "success in the home is". What is it, and can this quote be considered somewhat harsh and destructive?
"It doesn't have to be about the Church (church) all the time!" -- SD

"Stage 5 is where you no longer believe the gospel as its literally or traditionally taught. Nonetheless, you find your own way to be active and at peace within it". -- SD

The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."

My introduction: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1576

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LookingHard
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Re: No other success can compensate for failure in the home

Post by LookingHard » 13 Nov 2017, 19:16

Yep. About the equivalent of Bednar a year or so ago strongly implying that if parents would have kept the Sabbath better that it would have kept some kids from falling away from the church. BS! Allegedly God could only get 2/3 of his children to follow him. Wouldn't it be a bit presumptuous to think we are going to do all that much better than God?

And I hope it is not inappropriate to share one of my favorite jokes that the quote in the subject always brings to my mind.

I had some sheetrock torn out of some of my walls for a few days. I took that opportunity to run some speaker wire for surround sound. As I was running the wire in my walls I thought I had better really be careful as I remember the quote, "“The most important of the work you will ever do will be within the walls of your own homes.” :-)

Curt Sunshine
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Re: No other success can compensate for failure in the home

Post by Curt Sunshine » 13 Nov 2017, 21:24

"The greatest work" quote is one I believe - but it can be used horribly.

"No success can compensate" quote, on the other hand . . .

I understand the intent (to motivate people to focus primarily on their families and not other things over their families, like careers), but it is a bludgeon used by the fortunate on those who feel they have failed in their homes and, therefore, nothing else matters. I wouldn't shed a tear if it disappeared completely.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

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SilentDawning
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Re: No other success can compensate for failure in the home

Post by SilentDawning » 14 Nov 2017, 05:54

I still remember when my son refused the priesthood at 12 years of age. We mentioned it to the YM president and his counselor who said "it depends in FHE and Scripture Reading and Prayer is happening in your home". Well, it wasn't happening, but it wasn't my fault either. Wife refused to do it, I tried, but the kids said we can't do it Mommy isn't there. I had to give up due to no support from anyone.

I felt incensed at the accusation that it was all our doing even after I'd tried. So, I then mentioned my daughter, and said "if that theory is true, then why is my daughter firing on all cylinders????". The YM president then agreed my daughter was on top of it all. I think it made them think'

Then, fast forward 2 years. We get a new Bishop who sees my son is unordained. He talks to us all, and my son agrees to receive the priesthood. Why was he so reluctant previously? He finally told my wife that its because he wears a diabetes pump and didnt' like the self-consciousness of everyone seeing it as he passed the Sacrament as a deacon. We told him he didn't have to pass, and he agreed without hestitation to be ordained a teacher.

But see how quick the members were to blame us as parents for his reluctance? Very destructive. There are times the church hurts more than it helps.
"It doesn't have to be about the Church (church) all the time!" -- SD

"Stage 5 is where you no longer believe the gospel as its literally or traditionally taught. Nonetheless, you find your own way to be active and at peace within it". -- SD

The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."

My introduction: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1576

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nibbler
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Re: No other success can compensate for failure in the home

Post by nibbler » 14 Nov 2017, 07:10

SilentDawning wrote:
14 Nov 2017, 05:54
But see how quick the members were to blame us as parents for his reluctance? Very destructive. There are times the church hurts more than it helps.
This is off topic but semi-related to what you said in the quote above. This article floated across social media a few days ago. I don't believe the author is affiliated with the LDS church, I think this phenomenon exists across nearly every religion:

https://contendfortruth.com/2016/07/04/ ... -children/
In a Q&A, Carl Trueman was asked about why churches today are losing their young people. Typical answers to this question range from things like the temptations of this world or the irrelevance of the church–your typical answers. But Trueman makes a keen and convicting connection between our parenting and apostasy.

“The church is losing its young people because the parents never taught their children that it was important. I think that applies across the board. It applies to family worship, and it also applies to whether you are in church every Sunday and what priority you demonstrate to your children church has on a Sunday. If the sun shines out and their friends are going to the beach, do you decide to skip church and go to the beach? In which case, you send signals to your children that it is not important.” (Carl Trueman)
Another dig at the parents. There's a lot of stuff in that article I take issue with. I link it here to show that it's not just our church.

People want to find explanations for why things aren't going well in their lives so they can produce more favorable outcomes. I think human nature is such that people will favor explanations for things that don't implicate themselves as being a part of the problem. People looking out for the church might approach the problem with a finger pointed towards the parents, the parents didn't do enough. The parents might approach the problem with a finger pointed towards the church, the church isn't relevant to my child's needs.

In my area there's a very strong push to solve the youth activation rate problem. The problem always comes down to something lacking in the parent or child. As a church we don't do a good job of listening to our youth; it's far easier to tell them what we think their problem is and we probably get too defensive if they suggest that we make changes.
We must all live in the real world... and sometimes that world can be pretty grim. But it is the dream... the hope... that makes the reality worth living.
– Captain America

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Beefster
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Re: No other success can compensate for failure in the home

Post by Beefster » 14 Nov 2017, 08:53

I think it's something that can apply in some situations... But even still, I don't believe it for a second. They may be the minority, but there are loads of people who become great despite their upbringing.

To see it weaponized like this is even more appalling.

My mom frequently blames herself for how my sister turned out because she had to start working and I consistently have to remind her that it isn't her fault and that it was my sister's choices. I tell her that I benefited greatly from having to become independent younger and that having her work has brought out some of the best in me.

I think the reason so many young people are leaving the church is because there is a cultural disconnect between the old and the young. The young feel marginalized and ignored and get advice that just isn't as helpful as it would have been 30-40 years ago. They've often been put in situations where home made it seem as if there was no choice but church, but the world around them does not feel the same way. You can't shelter kids like you used to; the internet just makes that too difficult. And if you do, you may just be setting them up for failure to not be able to resist temptation when they are out of the house because it's a new thing.

The correlation between home success and life success is not as black and white as this quote.
Boys are governed by rules. Men are governed by principles.

Often I hear doubt being presented as the opposite of faith but I think certainty does a better job of filling that role. Doubts can help faith grow, certainty almost always makes faith shrink. --nibbler

AmyJ
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Re: No other success can compensate for failure in the home

Post by AmyJ » 14 Nov 2017, 08:54

SilentDawning wrote:
13 Nov 2017, 17:49
Perhaps we need to define what "success in the home is". What is it, and can this quote be considered somewhat harsh and destructive?
I think the great pitfall here is giving the church the power to define what a "successful" home is. The standard definition of church attendance, temple recommends, missions, etc relies on external benchmarks for a very internal, individual processes irregardless of circumstances.

The older I get, the more I define "success" as being able to successfully navigate through difficult decisions and continuing to grow. I don't have a definition for "success inside the home" yet - but I am pretty sure it involves raising a thoughtful child into an adult who can figure out how to cope with life's upcoming challenges and has given thought to what she believes. I am only 8 years into this parenting thing, so I've got time to figure how how to judge it.

I think as parents we are like the gardener in Jacob 5. We do stuff to raise our kids - pruning, environment placement, work on various principles, graft in specific influences, but at the end of the day, we often ask "What else could I have done?". I feel that if we have done what we can, and have adapted over time working with our children, then we can take the situation for what is worth, consider that story as written so far, and count our other successes as well.

While we often refer to that quote as regarding our children, I think it applies to marriages as well. In fact, I think it applies more strongly to marriages now as I get older. We always have a choice whether to give up, move on, or work to improve our marriages.
Last edited by AmyJ on 14 Nov 2017, 09:50, edited 1 time in total.

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nibbler
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Re: No other success can compensate for failure in the home

Post by nibbler » 14 Nov 2017, 09:42

AmyJ wrote:
14 Nov 2017, 08:54
SilentDawning wrote:
13 Nov 2017, 17:49
Perhaps we need to define what "success in the home is". What is it, and can this quote be considered somewhat harsh and destructive?
I think the great pitfall here is giving the church the power to define what a "successful" home is. The standard definition of church attendance, temple recommends, missions, etc relies on external benchmarks for a very internal, individual process irregardless of circumstances.
:clap:

This.
We must all live in the real world... and sometimes that world can be pretty grim. But it is the dream... the hope... that makes the reality worth living.
– Captain America

Roy
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Re: No other success can compensate for failure in the home

Post by Roy » 14 Nov 2017, 11:02

Our church believes in self determination / internal locus of control and the just world hypothesis.

I believe that some for whom these concepts do not work as well will feel marginalized and many will go inactive or leave the church that is not speaking to their particular life experiences.

I believe that some for whom these concepts do work well may rise to positions of leadership. As leaders it is your job to teach the church doctrine. If your personal experience supports the doctrine then it can be used as "faith promoting". If your personal experience does not support the doctrine then it is encouraged to be put on a shelf ... as an honest question that will be answered someday, if you remain faithful and endure to the end.

Therefore the stuff we hear from leadership tends to perpetuate these ideas.

Because we (as humans) like to maintain our internal locus of control/Just world assumptive reality we can be quick to find fault with people who did not get the desired results. "They must have done it wrong. I will do it better and ensure my desired result."

In parenting there is already anxiety and hand-wringing about doing it right and doing right by your kids. The LDS program seems to offer a near guarantee of positive results - if you follow the formula closely.

Once again it works great for certain people in certain circumstances and not as well for other people in other circumstances. Those it works for will thrive and may be promoted. Those it does not work as well for will sit in the pews with "questions" and may stop going entirely.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13

Roy
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Re: No other success can compensate for failure in the home

Post by Roy » 14 Nov 2017, 11:08

Also, this quote is not nearly as hard edged as the "No empty chairs" idea.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13

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