9/13 Rasband face to face - the restoration proclamation

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nibbler
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9/13 Rasband face to face - the restoration proclamation

Post by nibbler » 15 Sep 2020, 05:43

Elder and Sister Rasband held a Q&A with the youth (all members 18-30) on 9/13/202.

Link to the face to face:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-E2LOqDTtA

The links that follow are direct links to the time a question was asked. Since the meeting starts off with technical difficulties I don't know whether they'll come along and replace the video with a version that's edited down for time, If they do it will break the direct time linking. It'll have to do for now.

Edit: They did edit the video to take out the technical difficulty stuff in the beginning, messing up the time links. I've since fixed them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-E2LOqDTtA&t=16m06s
Q: What can you tell us about the process that brought the prophets, seers, and revelators to declare this marvelous proclamation (on the restoration)?
Paraphrased answer: The Q15 got together and all contributed. It was the mind and will of JC, it's what he wants us to know.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-E2LOqDTtA&t=18m33s
Q: Harriet from Wyoming asked, "What advice do you have for when we feel uncomfortable with certain church teachings or policies? How can we continue to sustain our leaders when we may struggle with feelings of disagreement and confusion?
Paraphrased answer: Follow the prophet. Follow the prophet. Follow the prophet.

Here Rasband invokes some of ETB's thoughts on the 14 fundamentals of following the prophet, specifically to follow the current prophet.

Followup question (from me, this wasn't in the meeting): what if you were a saint in the 1850s, BY was prophet, and you disagreed with the teaching that people in interracial marriages should be put to death? BY is your current prophet. BY is clearly wrong. Is the 1850s answer similar, "Follow the prophet?" If it's okay for a saint in the 1850s to disagree with BY's teaching on interracial marriage, is it similarly okay to disagree with Nelson about some of his teachings today? Expecting that future prophets will eventually come around.

We might cite presentism and how we can't judge people in the past by today's standards, but that only goes to show that today's standards have improved in some ways. What are saints that get a little ahead of the curve to do while they wait for everyone else to catch up? I don't know whether there's an answer other than to wait patiently but I feel the main issue is how we (as a culture) have the tendency to rebuke people that disagree with the prophet. Not only are people called to wait patiently, they're also called to endure being defamed along the way.

IMO sometimes the prophet is wrong and it's a good thing to disagree.

There's a cute (I mean that, I find it kinda cute) quote in this section of the devotional:
Rasband wrote:We wanted to firmly establish for all of you the importance of following God's living prophet on the Earth. That's the safest, most sure way to follow the Lord's mouthpiece on the Earth.
Following the prophet is the most sure way of following the prophet. :smile:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-E2LOqDTtA&t=23m34s
Q: Harry from California asks, "I have serious problems with the truth claims of the church and I'm considering removing my names [sic] from the records of the church. Can you give me a reason why I should stay?
Paraphrased answer:

Ask why I (Rasband) and so many others choose to stay? Think of it as why do I (me) choose to stay?

They then showed a video of someone that had suicidal ideations, he found the church which helped for a while, he continued to struggle with the ideations but had a spiritual experience, and gained a testimony. The young man from the video then testified during the meeting of how the church gave him everything.

I'm not sure whether that answers Harry's question. I find it easy to project myself into Harry, it's a question I ask myself from time to time. I do not deny, not even a little, that the church is an enormous blessing in the lives of other people. I realize this next question is self centered, but... is the church a blessing in my life?

Technically the question was, "Can you give me a reason why I should stay?" and to that I'd answer, "No." I don't think other people can give me a reason to stay. A reason that comes from someone else may last for a season, but for it to last I think we all need a personal reason that comes from within.

Harry mentioned truth claims. I think our focus on truth claims (as evidenced by the things we talk about in SM, SS, GC, devotionals, etc.) are at the heart of the issue. I've said this elsewhere, but as a culture it feels like we dedicate more energy propping up the church's truth claims than the energy that we spend teaching and learning good principles.

And what's worse... how do we treat the people that don't believe in the truth claims? Am I a better person for believing the BoM is historical? Am I a worse person for believing the BoM is not historical? I'd say that the historicity of the BoM is completely irrelevant to whether I'm a good or bad person, yet at church we use language that leads me to believe that we view a person as being deficient for not believing every single element of the restoration narrative... and I hear that language in SM all the way up to GC.

Ugh. I'm out of gas. I'll have to revisit this thread later to do the rest of the questions.
Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.
― Jesus

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Re: 9/13 Rasband face to face - the restoration proclamation

Post by DarkJedi » 15 Sep 2020, 05:59

This is why I don't watch these things. :P
There's a cute (I mean that, I find it kinda cute) quote in this section of the devotional:
Rasband wrote: We wanted to firmly establish for all of you the importance of following God's living prophet on the Earth. That's the safest, most sure way to follow the Lord's mouthpiece on the Earth.
Following the prophet is the most sure way of following the prophet. :smile:
In my book this goes along directly with "the prophet will never lead us astray." And who said that (it's not stated directly in scripture)? The prophet. So, the prophet will never lead us astray says the prophet. The fox will never eat those chickens says the fox.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

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nibbler
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Re: 9/13 Rasband face to face - the restoration proclamation

Post by nibbler » 15 Sep 2020, 06:09

Ha. "The prophet will never lead us astray." is an example of how the prophet actually can lead people astray. :angel:
Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.
― Jesus

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Re: 9/13 Rasband face to face - the restoration proclamation

Post by Katzpur » 15 Sep 2020, 08:08

DarkJedi wrote:
15 Sep 2020, 05:59
This is why I don't watch these things. :P
Well put.
"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. If you try it, you will be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." ~Rudyard Kipling ~

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Re: 9/13 Rasband face to face - the restoration proclamation

Post by Ann » 15 Sep 2020, 10:14

It seems like leaders still haven’t grappled with how the internet has changed the church. They’re not alone in that, but there’s very little “waiting patiently” these days. People talk - online, 24/7, anonymously for social safety. I think privately current leadership would all say that they found the priesthood ban objectionable. So they can point to that as successful, faithful waiting. I think they see that as the last thing that needed to change, and what’s all this other stuff.
Last edited by Ann on 15 Sep 2020, 12:52, edited 1 time in total.
"Preachers err by trying to talk people into belief; better they reveal the radiance of their own discovery." - Joseph Campbell

"The real voyage of discovery consists not in seeking new landscapes, but in having new eyes." - Marcel Proust

"Therefore they said unto him, How were thine eyes opened? He answered and said unto them, A man that is called Jesus made clay, and anointed my eyes...." - John 9:10-11

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Re: 9/13 Rasband face to face - the restoration proclamation

Post by Roy » 15 Sep 2020, 10:49

nibbler wrote:
15 Sep 2020, 05:43
Q: Harry from California asks, "I have serious problems with the truth claims of the church and I'm considering removing my names [sic] from the records of the church. Can you give me a reason why I should stay?
Paraphrased answer:

Ask why I (Rasband) and so many others choose to stay? Think of it as why do I (me) choose to stay?

They then showed a video of someone that had suicidal ideations, he found the church which helped for a while, he continued to struggle with the ideations but had a spiritual experience, and gained a testimony. The young man from the video then testified during the meeting of how the church gave him everything.

I'm not sure whether that answers Harry's question. I find it easy to project myself into Harry, it's a question I ask myself from time to time. I do not deny, not even a little, that the church is an enormous blessing in the lives of other people. I realize this next question is self centered, but... is the church a blessing in my life?

Technically the question was, "Can you give me a reason why I should stay?" and to that I'd answer, "No." I don't think other people can give me a reason to stay. A reason that comes from someone else may last for a season, but for it to last I think we all need a personal reason that comes from within.

Harry mentioned truth claims. I think our focus on truth claims (as evidenced by the things we talk about in SM, SS, GC, devotionals, etc.) are at the heart of the issue. I've said this elsewhere, but as a culture it feels like we dedicate more energy propping up the church's truth claims than the energy that we spend teaching and learning good principles.
I feel like I am condensing the response to Harry's question but part of this exchange went like this. Harry: "I basically do not believe that the church is led by God or has any special access to the divine or ability to secure a better afterlife. Can you give me a reason why I should stay despite this personal reality?" Answer: "Ask yourself why so many others choose to stay, maybe they know something that you do not... Go ask God why you should stay and I promise he will give you every reason but the biggest reason of all is the gift by God of His son Jesus Christ."

Harry is basically asking what the church has to offer him if there is no God and no afterlife (or there is a God and an afterlife that has no connection to Mormonism).

To condense it even further. Harry: "Why should I stay if I don't believe it to be true?" Answer: "Because I believe it is true."

I cannot blame them for this response. They cannot imagine a reality where the church does not hold all the keys to eternal life and happiness.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13

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Re: 9/13 Rasband face to face - the restoration proclamation

Post by Minyan Man » 15 Sep 2020, 11:12

nibbler wrote:
15 Sep 2020, 05:43
Harriet from Wyoming asked, "What advice do you have for when we feel uncomfortable with certain church teachings or policies? How can we continue to sustain our leaders when we may struggle with feelings of disagreement and confusion?
Paraphrased answer: Follow the prophet. Follow the prophet. Follow the prophet
What happened to the quote..."What would Jesus do?"

When I joined the Church, the Missionaries asked me to pray & receive my answer through the Holy Ghost.
After all, that's the name of the Church (Jesus Christ).

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Re: 9/13 Rasband face to face - the restoration proclamation

Post by Arrakeen » 15 Sep 2020, 11:14

I agree that Harry’s question didn’t really get answered. I’m currently asking myself what the point of staying will be after I graduate from BYU. I can see why others stay and how the church works for them, but I’m not convinced there’s anything for me. The church focuses on the truth claims as their main “selling point” of being the one true church, so it’s understandably difficult to see why you should stay if you no longer accept the truth claims.

Outside the church most people really aren’t wondering which church is true, they’re asking how they can be happy and lead a good life. In the 19th century it was a big deal which of the many churches was correct, but now the big question people are asking is if religion has any value for them at all. This is a problem I ran into a lot teaching as a missionary. A lot of people nowadays don’t care if Joseph Smith was a prophet. They care how the church can improve their life and how the church makes a difference in the world. And all the focus on the restoration distracts from giving the answers people actually need.
DarkJedi wrote:
15 Sep 2020, 05:59
This is why I don't watch these things. :P
Yeah, I’ve pretty much stopped watching these kinds of things, also devotionals and general conference. I feel much better when I don’t know what church leaders are saying. The main message I always get from them is that they think they understand me, but they really don’t.

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Re: 9/13 Rasband face to face - the restoration proclamation

Post by DarkJedi » 15 Sep 2020, 12:20

Roy wrote:
15 Sep 2020, 10:49
I feel like I am condensing the response to Harry's question but part of this exchange went like this. Harry: "I basically do not believe that the church is led by God or has any special access to the divine or ability to secure a better afterlife. Can you give me a reason why I should stay despite this personal reality?" Answer: "Ask yourself why so many others choose to stay, maybe they know something that you do not... Go ask God why you should stay and I promise he will give you every reason but the biggest reason of all is the gift by God of His son Jesus Christ."

Harry is basically asking what the church has to offer him if there is no God and no afterlife (or there is a God and an afterlife that has no connection to Mormonism).
I think the bolded part is a big issue - we're not the only ones who believe in Jesus Christ and quite frankly some other churches offer a better version of Christ. And, it's only been recently that we started to put more emphasis on Christ as opposed to stuff like food storage.
To condense it even further. Harry: "Why should I stay if I don't believe it to be true?" Answer: "Because I believe it is true."

I cannot blame them for this response. They cannot imagine a reality where the church does not hold all the keys to eternal life and happiness.
Yep, and that puzzles me to some extent because a good chunk of them have lived in places other than Utah/The Corridor. On the other hand, just because they've lived out here doesn't mean they've necessarily lived outside the church bubble. Open your eyes and look around - there are billions of other happy people in the world (some of who aren't even believers).
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

My Introduction

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DarkJedi
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Re: 9/13 Rasband face to face - the restoration proclamation

Post by DarkJedi » 15 Sep 2020, 12:26

Arrakeen wrote:
15 Sep 2020, 11:14
I agree that Harry’s question didn’t really get answered. I’m currently asking myself what the point of staying will be after I graduate from BYU. I can see why others stay and how the church works for them, but I’m not convinced there’s anything for me. The church focuses on the truth claims as their main “selling point” of being the one true church, so it’s understandably difficult to see why you should stay if you no longer accept the truth claims.

Outside the church most people really aren’t wondering which church is true, they’re asking how they can be happy and lead a good life. In the 19th century it was a big deal which of the many churches was correct, but now the big question people are asking is if religion has any value for them at all. This is a problem I ran into a lot teaching as a missionary. A lot of people nowadays don’t care if Joseph Smith was a prophet. They care how the church can improve their life and how the church makes a difference in the world. And all the focus on the restoration distracts from giving the answers people actually need.
DarkJedi wrote:
15 Sep 2020, 05:59
This is why I don't watch these things. :P
Yeah, I’ve pretty much stopped watching these kinds of things, also devotionals and general conference. I feel much better when I don’t know what church leaders are saying. The main message I always get from them is that they think they understand me, but they really don’t.
Agreed. I think The Next Mormons made this point pretty well, and Jana Riess has made the point in some of her other writings as well. The church is trying to answer the wrong questions. The question (and desires) of Millennials and Gen. Z have little to do with "Which church is right?" and much more to do with "How can we make the world better and help others?" In fairness, I do think some of the leadership want to understand but I agree that they do not. It is difficult to give up on things they've been taught and believed all their lives, but in order for real change to happen they need to look outside that bubble and realize there are other points of view and other experiences (that is, just because it works that way for you doesn't mean it works that way for me).
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

My Introduction

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