How will the Church change in light of the Covid Virus?

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nibbler
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Re: How will the Church change in light of the Covid Virus?

Post by nibbler » 19 May 2020, 20:13

I almost forgot:
Primary. During phases 1 and 2, leaders may determine whether to have nursery and some younger Primary classes.
If there's one thing I know about nursery and younger Primary, it's that the kids like to keep their distance from one another, do a good job of doing what they're told, and never have to be physically corralled.

Seriously. They needed to spend two more seconds thinking about this one... putting the grand total of seconds thought on the subject at two.
It’s strange. When I couldn’t find the drop and the plague came, you seemed so far away I would not ever be able to find you again. But I know now that you were here all along, and that nothing, not the Black Death nor seven hundred years, nor death nor things to come nor any other creature could ever separate me from your caring and concern. It was with me every minute.
― Connie Willis , Doomsday Book

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DarkJedi
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Re: How will the Church change in light of the Covid Virus?

Post by DarkJedi » 20 May 2020, 05:35

nibbler wrote:
19 May 2020, 20:13
I almost forgot:
Primary. During phases 1 and 2, leaders may determine whether to have nursery and some younger Primary classes.
If there's one thing I know about nursery and younger Primary, it's that the kids like to keep their distance from one another, do a good job of doing what they're told, and never have to be physically corralled.

Seriously. They needed to spend two more seconds thinking about this one... putting the grand total of seconds thought on the subject at two.
Yes, this has been my experience as well both at church and at home. One has to practically force them to touch one another. :P (Hence the "He's touching me!" scream from many a car backseat.)

I think it interesting how nursery and younger Primary are specified while saying nothing about older Primary. Honestly on my first read through I interpreted phase 1 as SM only not even giving a thought to other meetings (apparently all of which should be shortened - whatever that means). On reading through again I realized that SM only was not specified, silly me for making such assumptions (even though the continued use of technology for some meetings was specified). While I'm at it, short to me means 30 minutes. So now in retrospect and rereading I am of the understanding that it is assumed all meetings are expected to resume in phase 1 in which case of course they need to address younger Primary because what else are we supposed to do with them? And that brings up the question of what if the local leader decides not to have nursery and younger Primary? Does that mean Mom and/or Dad miss their meeting because they have to take care of their own kid (heaven forbid!). What if they're the teachers for youth SS? And given that my kids are (were) perfect, do I want them intermingling with the less perfect rascals before going to see Grandma? My wife teachers older Primary, but her co-teacher (who I am absolutely sure will be there come hell, high water or COVID) is 80 something and highly vulnerable (I won't rant about how this came about). Do I want to be the bishop responsible for her getting the virus because she went to class to do her "duty?"

One other short rant before I let go. Why does it make a difference if the meeting is "shortened" or of regular length? It is my understanding exposure is related to being within close proximity (less than 6-14 feet depending on who you ask) for a period of about 10 minutes without PPE/barriers. Putting that many people together for a shortened meeting makes no sense to me because it will not be less than 10 minutes.

I'll take a breath now and shut up before I get myself into trouble.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

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DarkJedi
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Re: How will the Church change in light of the Covid Virus?

Post by DarkJedi » 20 May 2020, 05:38

Our local news ran an interview with a local Catholic priest last evening. He was talking about their plans, also handed down from above, to reopen. He indicated they would have a shortened basic mass without communion or even hymn signing. And he indicated it would not happen before the end of June.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

My Introduction

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nibbler
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Re: How will the Church change in light of the Covid Virus?

Post by nibbler » 20 May 2020, 06:17

DarkJedi wrote:
20 May 2020, 05:35
Honestly on my first read through I interpreted phase 1 as SM only not even giving a thought to other meetings (apparently all of which should be shortened - whatever that means).
It did read that way, and it would certainly make more sense for a phase one. All the rest can be eased in during later phases.

I lopped off that quote about the Primary, the rest of it was:
They may also determine whether to hold both singing time and classes
Elsewhere the guidelines state:
It is recommended that choirs be temporarily suspended.
Which is good, because there is speculation that singing in choirs is especially dangerous. People breath deeply, force air out for volume, and are in close proximity. If choirs are suspended for that reason it would probably be a good idea to suspend singing time in the Primary and even suspend singing hymns.

And the quote about choirs I've got up there illustrates another nit I have. All the wishy-washy language in the guidelines. "It is recommended," "may," "should," etc.

They're just words, but they don't instill much confidence. Believing that we're the exception and that the rules apply to others is one of the ways the virus is spread. I appreciate how the rules can't be the same for New Zealand and NYC, but wishy-washy rules aren't rules, so they may be ignored in areas where they shouldn't be.
DarkJedi wrote:
20 May 2020, 05:35
One other short rant before I let go. Why does it make a difference if the meeting is "shortened" or of regular length? It is my understanding exposure is related to being within close proximity (less than 6-14 feet depending on who you ask) for a period of about 10 minutes without PPE/barriers. Putting that many people together for a shortened meeting makes no sense to me because it will not be less than 10 minutes.
We wouldn't even be done with phase one of the announcements in 10 minutes. ;)

It's recycled air, and my comment earlier about chapels often being interior rooms where little to no UV light has ever penetrated... UV light can disinfect, but many chapels and overflows out there have never gotten any of that.

Shortened vs. regular length. I don't know whether it's been studied, but maybe the level of initial exposure could determine how severe your symptoms will be? Like if you touched the back of a pew that someone with the virus in the prior ward had touched during their meeting vs. someone coughing right in your face. But that's an argument over severity of the illness, not an argument over whether someone will get the virus.

I suspect it's just a feel good thing. Something that makes people feel like they're being safer.
It’s strange. When I couldn’t find the drop and the plague came, you seemed so far away I would not ever be able to find you again. But I know now that you were here all along, and that nothing, not the Black Death nor seven hundred years, nor death nor things to come nor any other creature could ever separate me from your caring and concern. It was with me every minute.
― Connie Willis , Doomsday Book

grobert93
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Re: How will the Church change in light of the Covid Virus?

Post by grobert93 » 20 May 2020, 07:40

DarkJedi wrote:
19 May 2020, 17:59
As I've had time to digest some of these guidelines and ponder them a bit I find them quite vague/nondescript. I hope when implementation actually comes there is more clear and defined guidance - but I'm at the same time pessimisticly doubtful.

DW and I had a brief discussion while on our evening walk. She actually had a couple good suggestions. Why don't the people blessing just wear gloves? She's not sure they normally do or would properly wash. Her other thought was why not put the bread in cups like the water? It would take longer but it would be less apt to be touched by someone else. That said, I too like Roy's suggestion.

I've seen that discussion about whether breaking the bread is part of the ordinance. I think it's a matter of interpretation. When I do it at home I bring our two small pieces of bread to the table already broken.
I can't help but pop in and remind everyone that while these guidelines are good, there are active believing members of the church who do NOT believe the virus is a bad thing, is as bad as the general public see it, or even exists at all. Just imagine how many active members will create contention from this situation because they don't even believe the virus is real.

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nibbler
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Re: How will the Church change in light of the Covid Virus?

Post by nibbler » 20 May 2020, 08:19

Add to that the members that believe when a church leader gives a green light it's as if god is saying it's now completely safe to come back.
It’s strange. When I couldn’t find the drop and the plague came, you seemed so far away I would not ever be able to find you again. But I know now that you were here all along, and that nothing, not the Black Death nor seven hundred years, nor death nor things to come nor any other creature could ever separate me from your caring and concern. It was with me every minute.
― Connie Willis , Doomsday Book

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Re: How will the Church change in light of the Covid Virus?

Post by Heber13 » 20 May 2020, 08:27

Halloween Trunk or Treat rules...going from you can't wear a mask to you MUST wear a mask. :D
Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."

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Re: How will the Church change in light of the Covid Virus?

Post by Minyan Man » 20 May 2020, 09:47

My wife had a telephone conversation with a long time member of our ward & this older member said, "we will be safe at church
because we are a enclosed group." She didn't say what "enclosed"meant. The implication was we will be safe at church regardless of
what happens outside. That didn't make sense to either one of us.

I'm sure that is the belief of a lot of members. Or, a variation of the same thought.

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DarkJedi
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Re: How will the Church change in light of the Covid Virus?

Post by DarkJedi » 20 May 2020, 09:58

Minyan Man wrote:
20 May 2020, 09:47
My wife had a telephone conversation with a long time member of our ward & this older member said, "we will be safe at church
because we are a enclosed group." She didn't say what "enclosed"meant. The implication was we will be safe at church regardless of
what happens outside. That didn't make sense to either one of us.

I'm sure that is the belief of a lot of members. Or, a variation of the same thought.
I agree with you MM, and I think some other churches/religions have people with similar mindsets. But how often have we read in the news about a church meeting that led to multiple infections, including the following just this week?

https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/17/us/covid ... index.html

I really don't get the whole "God will protect/favor us" thing when it flies in the face of reason and reality.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

My Introduction

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Heber13
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Re: How will the Church change in light of the Covid Virus?

Post by Heber13 » 20 May 2020, 10:38

It was interesting to read the reaction of people in comments below that article. People still doubt if it is a significant danger to expose others or not. Some reactions..."180 exposed...zero become sick." Things like that.

So there is a wide range of opinions out there.

Some will say "God will protect us."

Others will say "God is trying to protect us by telling the experts to direct us all to stay distant and wear face coverings."

Others will say "There is nothing to protect us from."
Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."

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