TR Questions Change-up

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nibbler
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Re: TR Questions Change-up

Post by nibbler » 06 Oct 2019, 15:50

Most looked the same, or similar enough. This one stood out:

Before:
Do you support, affiliate with, or agree with any group or individual whose teachings or practices are contrary to or oppose those accepted by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?
After:
Do you support or promote any teachings, practices, or doctrine contrary to those of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?
If we could nail down what a doctrine was I'd probably find myself supporting a contrary doctrine.
The wound is the place where the light enters you.
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Curt Sunshine
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Re: TR Questions Change-up

Post by Curt Sunshine » 06 Oct 2019, 15:59

I am in the process of asking my local leaders if the Church just prohibited me from attending the temple. I am fairly certain that is happening a lot right now.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

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nibbler
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Re: TR Questions Change-up

Post by nibbler » 06 Oct 2019, 16:28

There's still wiggle room. "Support or promote" doesn't mean the same thing as "agree with."

Still, it's baffling how in 2019 the temple recommend has more than one question. Of course I'd like to do away with temple recommend interviews altogether. Maybe that makes me have to answer yes to this particular question. :smile:
The wound is the place where the light enters you.
— Rumi

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Ilovechrist77
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Re: TR Questions Change-up

Post by Ilovechrist77 » 06 Oct 2019, 17:20

When it comes to good works taught in the church, I used to get so annoyed when many Christians outside of the church would accuse of believing our works save us and not grace, as the old argument/debate goes. Now after my faith transition, I think in many ways they're right. Unfortunately, too many of these Christians tend to get too pushy when it comes to sharing the Gospel, according to what I've experienced.

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DarkJedi
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Re: TR Questions Change-up

Post by DarkJedi » 06 Oct 2019, 17:27

nibbler wrote:
06 Oct 2019, 16:28
There's still wiggle room. "Support or promote" doesn't mean the same thing as "agree with."

Still, it's baffling how in 2019 the temple recommend has more than one question. Of course I'd like to do away with temple recommend interviews altogether. Maybe that makes me have to answer yes to this particular question. :smile:
I can't say I have expressly promoted gay marriage but I do support it and agree with it. I'm not of a mind to ask the question of my SP at the moment, although if the topic comes up I will. My recommend is good until next year and I suppose I will ask then. FWIW, I haven't actually been to the temple in almost 2 years and there are no family temple events in the horizon. I'm good for the moment.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

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Curt Sunshine
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Re: TR Questions Change-up

Post by Curt Sunshine » 06 Oct 2019, 17:53

My new Bishop doesn't know me very well yet, and I have not met my new Stake President, so I decided to talk with a two friends I have known for quite a while about it. They both have been Bishops and served in multiple bishoprics (and other ward and stake leadership callings). They also are totally committed to the Church. Their answers were very similar.

My summary is:
If it meant disagreeing with any policy, doctrine, or practice, there would be very few members left - so it can't mean that. Therefore, it has to mean the same basic thing it has been understood to mean in the past, just not limited to polygamous groups. In shorthand, it used to mean support of organizations that oppose the Church itself and publicly promoting opposition to the Church. That still is how I am going to view it, because I don't want to take away the temple recommends of nearly all members within my stewardship.


One of them mentioned movements inside the Church to force change that weren't organized into a particular "organization" (like Denver Snuffer) as a possible reason why "organization" was removed.

I agree with that view. Unless there is clarification from SLC, that is how I am going to interpret it - and stick with a simple "no".
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

Curt Sunshine
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Re: TR Questions Change-up

Post by Curt Sunshine » 06 Oct 2019, 18:14

Another friend with a similar background mentioned that "support" was in the last version, so the difference is between "affiliate with" and "promote". Promote actually is a more active verb, so he thinks the new version allows affiliation as long as active promotion doesn't occur. He sees it as more narrow than the last one.

I personally think that might be a bit of a stretch, but it is enlightening that many traditional, orthodox members and leaders are looking for ways to keep it from being used as an excuse to take away recommends. (One friend did mention the possibility that some Bishops with "Gospel hobby horses" might abuse it, but he pointed out they probably were doing so already if they were inclined that way.)
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

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SilentDawning
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Re: TR Questions Change-up

Post by SilentDawning » 06 Oct 2019, 20:01

As long as I stay anonymous, I'm not worried. At least, not for now. I don't think everyone agrees with the church on all items anyway. The more experienced you get, the more you see things more clearly, or more "grayly".
"It doesn't have to be about the Church (church) all the time!" -- SD

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."

A man asked Jesus "do all roads lead to you?" Jesus responds,”most roads don’t lead anywhere, but I will travel any road to find you.” Adapted from The Shack, William Young

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mom3
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Re: TR Questions Change-up

Post by mom3 » 06 Oct 2019, 21:14

"I stayed because it was God and Jesus Christ that I wanted to follow and be like, not individual human beings." Chieko Okazaki Dialogue interview

"I am coming to envision a new persona for the Church as humble followers of Jesus Christ....Joseph and his early followers came forth with lots of triumphalist rhetoric, but I think we need a new voice, one of humility, friendship and service. We should teach people to believe in God because it will soften their hearts and make them more willing to serve." - Richard Bushman

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