Oaks' recent comments on LGBT+

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Roy
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Re: Oaks' recent comments on LGBT+

Post by Roy » 07 Oct 2019, 11:22

President Oaks spoke recently in Women's Session of GC. He reiterated his recent LGBT comments and directly referenced, and heavily quoted from, President Nelson's recent BYU address. DD had invited a friend to attend with her as our ward was doing a dinner afterwards. DW said that she was horrified and embarrassed by the words of DHO.

A broad overview is that the prime commandment is to love God. the second prime commandment is to love others. We show our love for God by obeying his commandments. We best show our love for others by clearly showing them how they too can obey the commandments and walk the covenant path. We can never allow our love for others to water down or modify the clear requirements of heaven. Exaltation is the reason the Gospel was restored and is what you want for everyone that you love.

DHO said that people that choose not to follow the commandments will still be saved in a lesser kingdom of glory.

DHO then spoke more in detail of what it means to love our LGBT brothers and sisters. He said that we should not treat them disrespectfully. We should not persecute them. We chould be "civil" towards them. "Regrettably, some persons facing these issues continue to feel marginalized and rejected by some members and leaders in our families, wards, and stakes. We must all strive to be kinder and more civil."

We don't know why we have different challenges in mortality - but we can all overcome those challenges if we sincerely ask for the Lord's help. We are all destined for a kingdom of glory after suffering for and repenting from our sins.

Have patience with young people struggling with LGBT feelings and avoid premature labeling. Many times the "uncertainty" reduces over time (DW pointed out to me that this is likely true a gay person would be more and more convinced of their sexual identity over time. Thus in most cases, uncertainty reduces over time).

He then talked about a strangely ambigious "prophecy" of SWK about women being a major force in growing the church (numerically and spiritually) through their rightious examples. He then tied it back to the subject of his talk by saying "among those the women of this church may save will be their own dear friends and family who are currently influenced by worldy priorities and devilish distortions."

More of the same really.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13

nibbler
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Re: Oaks' recent comments on LGBT+

Post by nibbler » 07 Oct 2019, 11:42

Roy wrote:
07 Oct 2019, 11:22
A broad overview is that the prime commandment is to love God. the second prime commandment is to love others. We show our love for God by obeying his commandments. We best show our love for others by clearly showing them how they too can obey the commandments and walk the covenant path. We can never allow our love for others to water down or modify the clear requirements of heaven. Exaltation is the reason the Gospel was restored and is what you want for everyone that you love.
The sort of behavior Oaks describes falls more into the realm of judgmentalism than love. At least for me.

Obedience is a personal choice and IMO the question of obedience ends at that personal boundary (it's entirely introspective). I'd feel more loved at church if I didn't feel everyone was out to police my behaviors. Especially in areas where I feel god has communicated something entirely different than the standard someone else is trying to enforce on me.

I think he's of the mindset that he doesn't want to run the risk of condoning something so he feels it's necessary to condemn 24/7.
Roy wrote:
07 Oct 2019, 11:22
DHO then spoke more in detail of what it means to love our LGBT brothers and sisters. He said that we should not treat them disrespectfully. We should not persecute them. We chould be "civil" towards them. "Regrettably, some persons facing these issues continue to feel marginalized and rejected by some members and leaders in our families, wards, and stakes. We must all strive to be kinder and more civil."
And fails to see the part he himself plays.
Roy wrote:
07 Oct 2019, 11:22
We don't know why we have different challenges in mortality - but we can all overcome those challenges if we sincerely ask for the Lord's help. We are all destined for a kingdom of glory after suffering for and repenting from our sins.
There's a comic out there somewhere on the interweb where a preacher tells a gay person to ask for the Lord's help to overcome their challenges. The gay person prays and the preacher disappears.

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LookingHard
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Re: Oaks' recent comments on LGBT+

Post by LookingHard » 07 Oct 2019, 11:50

More of the same. Yep.

I have heard that he is probably motivated by legal fears and is trying to make it so that the church has a legal leg to stand on if someone in the future wants to sue the church in some of these areas.

Oaks is going to Oak.

Roy
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Re: Oaks' recent comments on LGBT+

Post by Roy » 07 Oct 2019, 12:45

Perhaps this is a side discussion. I was curious about this "prophecy" of SWK. The original is below. The part quoted by DHO is in bold.
How special it is for Latter-day Saint women to be given the lofty assignments they have been given by our Father in Heaven, especially those of you who have been privileged to be born in this part of this last dispensation. Let other women pursue heedlessly what they perceive as their selfish interests. You can be a much needed force for love and truth and righteousness on this planet. Let others selfishly pursue false values, but God has given to you the tremendous tasks of nurturing families, friends, and neighbors, just as men are to provide. But both husband and wife are to be parents!
Finally, my dear sisters, may I suggest to you something that has not been said before or at least in quite this way. Much of the major growth that is coming to the Church in the last days will come because many of the good women of the world (in whom there is often such an inner sense of spirituality) will be drawn to the Church in large numbers. This will happen to the degree that the women of the Church reflect righteousness and articulateness in their lives and to the degree that the women of the Church are seen as distinct and different—in happy ways—from the women of the world.
Among the real heroines in the world who will come into the Church are women who are more concerned with being righteous than with being selfish. These real heroines have true humility, which places a higher value on integrity than on visibility. Remember, it is as wrong to do things just to be seen of women as it is to do things to be seen of men. Great women and men are always more anxious to serve than to have dominion.
Thus it will be that female exemplars of the Church will be a significant force in both the numerical and the spiritual growth of the Church in the last days.
No wonder the adversary strives, even now, to prevent this from happening! Regardless of who is getting the adversary’s special attention at any given time, he seeks to make all people “miserable like unto himself” (2 Ne. 2:27). Indeed, he seeks “the misery of all mankind” (2 Ne. 2:18). He is undeviating in his purposes and is clever and relentless in his pursuit of them.
As we approach the general conference with its priesthood session, we will be no less loving or direct with the brethren, for our counsel will be similar.
We love you sisters. We have confidence in you. We rejoice in your devotion. We are greatly heartened by your presence not only tonight but in this portion of this dispensation wherein your talents and spiritual strength are so desperately needed.
From what I can tell, this passage was appreciated by Sister Julie Beck. She referred to it in her talk in 2010 - Sister Julie B. Beck: "And upon the Handmaids in Those Days Will I Pour Out My Spirit" She quoted the prophecy of Joel that her talk was named after. Sister Beck then said that SWK "echoed this prophecy" (the prophecy from Joel) then she gave the SWK quote largely as the same as quoted by DHO above.

It appears that the first time this quote was given the rank of Prophecy was by then Elder RMN is 2015:
"Thirty-six years ago, in 1979, President Spencer W. Kimball made a profound prophecy about the impact that covenant-keeping women would have on the future of the Lord's Church. He prophesied: 'Much of the major growth that is coming to the Church in the last days will come because many of the good women of the world... will be drawn to the Church in large numbers. This will happen to the degree that the women of the Church reflect righteousness and articulateness in their lives and to the degree that the women of the Church are seen as distinct and different--in happy ways--from the women of the world.' (Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Spencer W. Kimball (2006), 222–23.)
"My dear sisters, you who are our vital associates during this winding-up scene, the day that President Kimball foresaw is today. You are the women he foresaw! Your virtue, light, love, knowledge, courage, character, faith, and righteous lives will draw good women of the world, along with their families, to the Church in unprecedented numbers!
"We, your brethren, need your strength, your conversion, your conviction, your ability to lead, your wisdom, and your voices. The kingdom of God is not and cannot be complete without women who make sacred covenants and then keep them, women who can speak with the power and authority of God!...
"Today, let me add that we need women who know how to make important things happen by their faith and who are courageous defenders of morality and families in a sin-sick world. We need women who are devoted to shepherding God's children along the covenant path toward exaltation; women who know how to receive personal revelation, who understand the power and peace of the temple endowment; women who know how to call upon the powers of heaven to protect and strengthen children and families; women who teach fearlessly."
- Russell M. Nelson, "A Plea to My Sisters," General Conference, October 2015, Sunday morning session
In summary, SWK does not appear to have been making a prophecy back in 1979. SWK seems to have been principally addressing women wanting to "selfishly pursue" work and achieve outside the home. In 2010 Sister Beck said that SWK was "echoing this prophecy" from Joel in his remarks. In 2015 Elder RMN said repeatedly that this SWK quote was a prophecy and that SWK "foresaw" our day. RMN refers to the main part of the prophecy of "good women of the wold" joining the church "in unprecedented numbers" as still forthcoming. In 2019 DHO again called this quote a prophecy repeatedly. He repeated that RMN had said that SWK "foresaw" today. Then he subtlely changes the promise. DHO longer elaborates on the predicted "unprecedented numbers" of female conversions. DHO also does not include any context about women of the world selfishly pursuing work and achievement outside of the home. Instead, DHO now says that "among those the women of this church may save will be their own dear friends and family who are currently influenced by worldly priorities and devilish distortions." DHO implies that female defense against LGBT values is part of this "prophecy".

TLDR - This SWK quoted prophecy does not appear to have been intended as a prophecy. DHO appears to be doubling down on the prophetic nature of the quote before twisting it from the original. He shifts the female defense against women working outside the home in the last days to now primarily be female defense against the LGBT movement of the last days. I believe that this is a misrepresentation of SWK's original words and intent.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13

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Reuben
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Re: Oaks' recent comments on LGBT+

Post by Reuben » 07 Oct 2019, 13:13

Roy wrote:
07 Oct 2019, 11:22
DHO said that people that choose not to follow the commandments will still be saved in a lesser kingdom of glory.
I remember as a believer looking forward to being pleasantly surprised by the wide variety of people in the Celestial Kingdom that I hadn't thought to expect to be there. Nowadays, I'm surprised that this kind of judgment didn't rub me the wrong way. How did I miss it entirely?

Anyway, here's my response, with apologies to Joseph Smith for adulterating his frankly insightful and instructive original.

"Holy, holy God; we believe that thou art our Father, and we believe that thou art masculine, and that thou wast a male spirit, and that thou hast a male body, and that thou wilt be a glorified, straight, manly man forever.

"Holy God, we believe that thou hast separated us from the wicked world; and we do not believe in the tradition of our brethren, in the which they are deceived by those wicked intellectuals and feminists; but we believe that thou hast elected us to be thy holy children; and also thou hast made it known unto us that there are but two genders in the eternities, which are necessary for doing we know not what.

"For gender roles are the same yesterday, today, and forever; and thou hast elected us that we shall be saved if we act according to thine eternal gender norms and don't muck it all up, whilst all around us are elected to be cast by thy obsessive legalism to a kingdom that must be below ours, unless they become like us; for the which holiness, O God, we thank thee; and we also thank thee that thou hast elected us, that we may not be led away after the foolish traditions of our brethren, which doth bind them down to a belief in compassion and equality, which doth lead their hearts to wander far from thee, our manly God.

"And again we thank thee, O God, that we are a chosen and a holy people. Amen."
My intro

Love before dogma. Truth before loyalty. Knowledge before certainty.

Roy
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Re: Oaks' recent comments on LGBT+

Post by Roy » 08 Oct 2019, 13:01

https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/hei ... h-66082715

https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out ... s-n1063221

Be kind to gays, but don't forget God's laws
People should love everyone no matter their difference, but the zeal to achieve that doesn't mean people should forget the faith's belief that God's laws prohibit gay marriage and prevents people in those relationships from receiving heavenly salvation, said Dallin H. Oaks
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13

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mom3
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Re: Oaks' recent comments on LGBT+

Post by mom3 » 08 Oct 2019, 13:45

Before this was the "Curse of Cain" problem. Give it 15 years. This will be old news.
"I stayed because it was God and Jesus Christ that I wanted to follow and be like, not individual human beings." Chieko Okazaki Dialogue interview

"I am coming to envision a new persona for the Church as humble followers of Jesus Christ....Joseph and his early followers came forth with lots of triumphalist rhetoric, but I think we need a new voice, one of humility, friendship and service. We should teach people to believe in God because it will soften their hearts and make them more willing to serve." - Richard Bushman

nibbler
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Re: Oaks' recent comments on LGBT+

Post by nibbler » 08 Oct 2019, 16:37

People should love everyone no matter their difference, but the zeal to achieve that doesn't mean people should forget the faith's belief that God's laws prohibit gay marriage and prevents people in those relationships from receiving heavenly salvation, said Dallin H. Oaks
How could they, what with Oaks bringing it up at every opportunity. :roll:

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SilentDawning
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Re: Oaks' recent comments on LGBT+

Post by SilentDawning » 09 Oct 2019, 09:00

nibbler wrote:
04 Oct 2019, 05:49
I hate to say it, but this is more of Oaks being Oaks. He has a real stick in his craw when it comes to this subject and too often uses the platform people have given him to stump his pet issue.

It's a tough issue to get around given the church's theology. So much of the Mormon purpose of life centers around heterosexual reproduction.
Do you think it's strategy to invest certain apostles with certain issues? For the longest time, Elder Packer was the poster child for same sex issues. He spoke regularly against it. Do you think they are concentrating the bad news into one person consciously, or is it just an expression of individual apostles' personalities?
"It doesn't have to be about the Church (church) all the time!" -- SD

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."

A man asked Jesus "do all roads lead to you?" Jesus responds,”most roads don’t lead anywhere, but I will travel any road to find you.” Adapted from The Shack, William Young

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felixfabulous
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Re: Oaks' recent comments on LGBT+

Post by felixfabulous » 09 Oct 2019, 11:40

I heard an interview with Lynn Packer (BKP's nephew) who said that he'd had dinner with BKP before the priesthood session where he gave the little factories talk and he believed that BKP did not want to give that talk but had been asked to. He thought that BKP was filling a role he'd been asked to fill. I'm not sure I totally believe that. I think in the Q15 there are a lot of strong personalities, egos and pet projects that are all jockeying for position.

Responding to other comments, I think it's very difficult, if not impossible to love unconditionally if you believe in a God who loves conditionally and for whom obedience to law is paramount. I think Oaks is very sincere, but believes that obedience to God's law is the most important thing, more important than hurt feelings or ostracizing people. I think he feels called to continually preach that obedience to God's law is the most important thing, no matter the repercussions. Since I have realized that, I can take what he says with a bit more of a grain of salt and can understand where he is coming from. With this mindset, I think you will never be able to love and accept LGBT people, the best you can do is be civil. This is what he is advocating, don't be mean, be civil and respectful, but do not ever accept gay relationships unconditionally.

For me personally, I think that the whole point of Jesus' ministry was to rebut this kind of thinking and that he taught and did demonstrated the fallacies and problems with this kind of religious thinking and observance and taught a higher law of unconditional love and transformation through radical acceptance.

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