Women and Girls can now be witnesses to ordinances

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hawkgrrrl
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Re: Women and Girls can now be witnesses to ordinances

Post by hawkgrrrl » 02 Oct 2019, 14:07

Felixfabulous: I was thinking about this problem we progressives have with these changes, and I think it's really the manner in which the announcements are made and received. Nobody's giving a grown man a treat for pooping in the potty, but I feel like that's what's expected here.

Here's a better alternative. How about having a sense of context and proportion and some sense of humor. "We really couldn't imagine any reason other than tradition that women were not included as witnesses. Unfortunately, in times past, these types of gender role distinctions often went unchallenged. There's no doctrinal reason for it, and we are correcting it as a result."

But instead, we are throwing children in with grown women as witnesses to baptisms (implying that women & children are one category yet again), and leaders make it out like this is the most wonderful momentous progress ever, which it really isn't, and the membership is going to be all smuggity smug, "Those feminists will never be satisfied, even when Church leaders are doing what they ask for! Those pants-wearing man-haters should all be burned at the stake!"

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nibbler
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Re: Women and Girls can now be witnesses to ordinances

Post by nibbler » 02 Oct 2019, 15:29

One thing I'd like to see change:

10/1/2019
Person 1: "I think women should be allowed to be witnesses of ordinances."
Person 2: "God is the arbiter of truth, not people disaffected from the church."

10/2/2019
Person 2: "Isn't it so beautiful that we received the revelation that women are allowed to be witnesses of ordinances."

I suppose that phenomenon will always be with us. Add this to the list of examples of people advocating for something, being labeled a villain for doing so, and the suggestion being implemented later. So long as a leader or god gets the credit for the idea I guess it's cool.

All I'm saying is that we could stand to omit the step where we label the villain for being out ahead of the leaders in the inspiration department.
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Re: Women and Girls can now be witnesses to ordinances

Post by nibbler » 02 Oct 2019, 15:37

Roy wrote:
02 Oct 2019, 14:06
I agree Hawkgrrrl. And yet, as my post above illustrates, where else would we draw the line? 18? Is that the universal demarcation of adulthood in all parts of the world?
Maybe draw the line at endowed as a start? I know that line is drawn for proxy sealings, but with the way this new policy was rolled out, women hitched a ride with children. Note that the announcement doesn't include the word "woman" or "women." Women are only implied. The announcement does explicitly reference children and youth though.

Making the policy exclusively about endowed women (not children or youth as of yet) would have brought women's increased role to the forefront. As it stands, we all had to infer their increased role.
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Re: Women and Girls can now be witnesses to ordinances

Post by Roy » 02 Oct 2019, 16:39

“As leaders in the Lord’s Church, we need to understand the eternal truths taught in the temple. We need to know the importance of and the difference between sacred covenants, ordinances and procedures.”
Using both historic and recent changes to temple ordinances and procedures to illustrate this point, President Nelson said that “any adjustments made to ordinances and/or procedures do not change the sacred nature of the covenants being made. Adjustments allow for covenants to be planted in the hearts of people living in different times and circumstances.”
I find this quote fascinating. It looks on the face of it to say that ordinances can be adjusted or changed without affecting the saving efficacy of the underlying covenant. This seems to go against many of the church teachings in the past about ordinances and apostacy. I am not complaining, mind you, just pointing out that thought on this matter appears to be evolving.
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Daughter1
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Re: Women and Girls can now be witnesses to ordinances

Post by Daughter1 » 02 Oct 2019, 19:54

FINALLY!!

I read the newsletter/email. I shouted to my empty apartment. I came here to post my shout.

I've wondered ever since I was 12 why only Priesthood holders could witness. Especially when we would have to wait for there to be enough witnesses. And then again when I first did sealings. I wondered why women couldn't help. I literally couldn't get any of my male family names sealed to their parents because we were operating with the bare minimum number of men in the room.

I get the problems with how it's been announced. For me personally, I don't mind it because it was a question I had as a youth equally as much as when I grew up. But I do understand that. I think it's a situation, for me at least, where I will just be grateful for the good and let the bad alone.
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Re: Women and Girls can now be witnesses to ordinances

Post by SamBee » 03 Oct 2019, 03:49

hawkgrrrl wrote:
02 Oct 2019, 13:25
Also, how am I supposed to be jazzed about being lumped in yet again with children? That's where this gender essentialist garbage leads to: women are in the same category as children. Only men are full people.
That was my first thought. A bit cack-handed, although to be honest I hate terminology like "gender essentialist". Just making women witnesses would have been enough for me.
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Re: Women and Girls can now be witnesses to ordinances

Post by Curt Sunshine » 03 Oct 2019, 20:50

I like that anyone who has been baptized can be an official witness at the same type of baptism. It matches the practice in the endowment: both endowed men and women have been able to be witnesses in the endowment.

I know this is from a male perspective, but I don't see this as lumping women with children - since children still can't be witnesses in the endowment, for example, when women can. Rather, it erases completely the sexual distinction in the entire category. If someone has gone through any ordinance, they can be a witness to it. I honestly can't think of a better solution that deals strictly with witnesses.

It also could open the door for expanding it to the actual performance of ordinances. I have no clue about timing, but I see it as a move in that direction.
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Re: Women and Girls can now be witnesses to ordinances

Post by Tica » 03 Oct 2019, 22:14

I am so thankful that this changed (dare I say it's about time!). My family is ecstatic. For some reason all I seem to be able to feel about it is a deep emptyness. I fear that all of these baby steps in a really positive direction have come a bit too late for me. At least I'm not feeling the crazy unexpected rage that I experienced after the temple changes.

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Re: Women and Girls can now be witnesses to ordinances

Post by hawkgrrrl » 04 Oct 2019, 10:28

I'm with Tica. I still don't feel women are seen and taken seriously. Thanks for the crumbs and afterthoughts. It's hard to be patient with the old attitudes about women. They are very very slow to change, and I'm in middle age already. I've been putting up with it for a long time.

I was also reminded after this announcement that I did in fact witness baptisms on my mission, something I would never have considered I wasn't allowed to do (and neither did the district leader who reminded me of it). So, he was "ahead of his time" in doing something that seemed common sense and logical. The idea that women couldn't witness was a foreign concept to us in our 20s. I only became aware women couldn't do that after I returned and as an adult saw women routinely barred from it, like we aren't credible adults just like men are.

And children witnessing? I'm iffy on the maturity of most 8 year olds to even understand their baptismal covenants, so yeah, I'm not 100% convinced by this one.

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Re: Women and Girls can now be witnesses to ordinances

Post by nibbler » 06 Oct 2019, 05:34

The next logical step would be to allow women to pass the sacrament. There's no scripture saying it's a PH only thing. It's pure tradition.
The wound is the place where the light enters you.
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