Women and Girls can now be witnesses to ordinances

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QuestionAbound
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Re: Women and Girls can now be witnesses to ordinances

Post by QuestionAbound » 02 Oct 2019, 10:27

I like that we are going back to scripture to clarify some things.

Good changes, though I admit that it'll feel weird to ME that a girl/woman/young woman will be sitting where our menfolk used to sit. I'm a traditionalist at heart. :)

Now...to change the rule for keeping the male new name a secret......here's to hoping! :thumbup:

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Holy Cow
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Re: Women and Girls can now be witnesses to ordinances

Post by Holy Cow » 02 Oct 2019, 11:32

Wow!! Thanks for the update. This is great news! Definitely a big step in the right direction. I hope this is moving things closer to extending the priesthood to any member that desires to hold it.
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Roy
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Re: Women and Girls can now be witnesses to ordinances

Post by Roy » 02 Oct 2019, 11:52

Wonderful! wonderful!

"In the mouths of two or three witnesses" - can we have three witnesses? :lol:

Looks like boys and girls as young as 8 can now act as witnesses. I somewhat dislike recently baptized children being lumped in with women. However, I am not entirely sure where else I might draw the line. The Aaronic office of a priest is required to perform the baptism, would the equivalent age be a good line in the sand? A baptized individual male or female that has at least reached the calendar year in which they will turn 16? That seems so arbitrary. Better I suppose to go with baptized members as young as 8. At least that might have some scriptural references to draw from if pressed. Mosiah 18:9 talks of baptized individuals standing as a "Witness of God"
D & C 20:37 lists as requirements for baptism that the individual "Witness before the church" that they have repented.
Doctrinally, there is a case to be made that 8 year old baptized members can act as witnesses.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13

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DarkJedi
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Re: Women and Girls can now be witnesses to ordinances

Post by DarkJedi » 02 Oct 2019, 12:22

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Hopefully the next step will be that mothers can hold babies during naming.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

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Minyan Man
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Re: Women and Girls can now be witnesses to ordinances

Post by Minyan Man » 02 Oct 2019, 12:41

Is there the possibility that they can't get enough men to come to the temple?
Especially with the number of temples being built?

Curt Sunshine
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Re: Women and Girls can now be witnesses to ordinances

Post by Curt Sunshine » 02 Oct 2019, 13:04

One of my daughters sent the announcement to our family text group. My wife and daughters are ecstatic.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

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hawkgrrrl
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Re: Women and Girls can now be witnesses to ordinances

Post by hawkgrrrl » 02 Oct 2019, 13:25

I'm not even remotely ecstatic about this as it points out just how ridiculous it was that it took us to 2019 to get there. Ardis did a great post in 2017 on the history of women as witnesses: http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2017/12/1 ... dont-know/

Also, how am I supposed to be jazzed about being lumped in yet again with children? That's where this gender essentialist garbage leads to: women are in the same category as children. Only men are full people.

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felixfabulous
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Re: Women and Girls can now be witnesses to ordinances

Post by felixfabulous » 02 Oct 2019, 14:00

These changes are all bittersweet for me in that I think the actual changes are good and needed. But, they seem to reinforce the notion that the original policy/stance was wrong or just something someone decided arbitrarily at one point, the people who were critical of it originally had legitimate criticisms (even though they were often criticized and marginalized themselves for making the criticism) and things were easier to change than were originally presented.

It's doubly frustrating when I point this out to people and am criticized for being too rigid or nitpicky and holding the Church to an unrealistic standard. So many of these cosmetic changes were recommended by Nylan McBaine in her Book Women at Church 10 years ago. I think they are good changes, but it rubs me the wrong way that they are rolled out as revelation.

Roy
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Re: Women and Girls can now be witnesses to ordinances

Post by Roy » 02 Oct 2019, 14:06

I agree Hawkgrrrl. And yet, as my post above illustrates, where else would we draw the line? 18? Is that the universal demarcation of adulthood in all parts of the world?

In some ways this is like the "let women pray in conference" movement in that in the end it seems rather silly that there was ever a prohibition at all.

However, in contrast to "let women pray", this change will allow women to participate in an essential and recognizable way in specific ordinances for their family members and loved ones. That is still a very good thing at the end of the day.

P.S. Felix and I were writing at the same time.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13

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