Education is a Comandment...

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Kipper
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Education is a Comandment...

Post by Kipper » 16 Aug 2019, 21:31

"Education is a Comandment..."
Except when the church has their own plans for you.

https://blog.pathwaynewsroom.org/2018/0 ... DmScsG8K44

This showed up on my FB page and I don't know how to explain my hurt and anger when I hear this stuff. I know Pathways is a great program, I have no issue with that but more and more I am hearing how we should educate ourselves continually but what if the church places you in a calling that you're not ready for and takes 5 years out of your life while in the middle of an education. All this after being newly re-activated and compelled to accept "calls from god to build the kingdom...don't worry, it will all work out." Except it didn't.

I know this sounds callous and will offend some but I am living this every day and I can't stay gainfully employed now without the education I forfeited. Sorry but I chose to vent here rather that on FB under all the praises for the advice. It's more complicated than "it's never too late" so I'm not going to explain. This issue alone is almost enough to make me disappear.

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DarkJedi
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Re: Education is a Comandment...

Post by DarkJedi » 17 Aug 2019, 05:08

Vent away, that's part of why we are here. I have appropriately vented in a way similar to this one in the past.

I recall your story and recall you mentioning your sacrifice. I am sorry this happened to you and I understand why this Facebook post/webpage is a trigger.

That Uchtdorf quote in the beginning is out of character for him. He usually speaks much more like the Nelson quote that follows, coming up short of ultimatums. It was difficult to find the "primary source" but I did, he said it in Oct. 2009 GC in an otherwise fairly good talk. Here's what I do with these kinds of quotes, and it is somewhat ironic although this talk is one of my all time favorites.
At the same time it should be remembered that not every statement made by a Church leader, past or present, necessarily constitutes doctrine. It is commonly understood in the Church that a statement made by one leader on a single occasion often represents a personal, though well-considered, opinion, not meant to be official or binding for the whole Church. The Prophet Joseph Smith taught that “a prophet [is] a prophet only when he [is] acting as such.”
(Elder Christofferson April 2012 GC)

The irony is of course that one church leader said this on a single occasion yet I apply it to all others where one church leader said something on a single occasion. However, I also apply the scripture principle - if it's not extensively talked about in multiple works of scripture it has limited, if any, value.

Thus, although I am educated and I am an educator and see the value in education, I do not believe education is a commandment.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

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Curt Sunshine
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Re: Education is a Comandment...

Post by Curt Sunshine » 17 Aug 2019, 07:23

I would say learning continually and growing in "light and knowledge" and changing one's perspective as a result is central to the concept of eternal progression.

Some of that can be accomplished through formal education, but it doesn't have to include one day in any sort of school. In this day and age, the ability to read is critical, but everything else is detail that can be fit into an individual mosaic rather than a collective, identical puzzle.

I am sorry you went through your past experience. I truly am. All I can say is that leaders have to speak generalities to collective peoples. Perhaps the only bright spot in having to learn that the hard way is gaining a "real" education as a result.

Ironic, I know.

Bless you moving forward.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

Kipper
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Re: Education is a Comandment...

Post by Kipper » 17 Aug 2019, 22:02

Waking up this morning after a restless night I was able to feel some calm thanks to the words from you guys. I have feelings I can't quite turn into thoughts which can be expressed but often I read them here. Some smart people here or at least talented at putting together meaningful responses. Thanks once again for being here.

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SilentDawning
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Re: Education is a Comandment...

Post by SilentDawning » 18 Aug 2019, 16:13

I am with you on having made sacrifices which didn't pan out. I made a really bad life decision soley due to the church influence, and I live with it regularly. It's made me miserable most of my life. It underscores, again, boundaries, about making your own decisions based on your unique circumstances, considering church leader advice, but not letting it run your life. No one promoting decisions that you accept has any accountability for the circumstances such a decision leaves you in if it doesn't work out.

I am meeting with a counselor the other day who I felt was siding on an issue that would leave me unemployed or in a much worse financial situation. I held my tongue, but my thoughts were -- I don't WANT to do that, it makes no sense to me, and by the way, are YOU going to guarantee lost income if I accept your advice in spite of my misgivings????

If you ask anyone that latter question, or an equivalent one, they will always say "No" -- so what right do they have to convince you? None whatsoever. They have no accountability for the outcome. I would rather live in bad circumstances I chose willingnessly than circumstances born of bad advice from others.

I will listen to advice from anywhere but leave it to me to make my final decision. For your sake, and mine.
Last edited by SilentDawning on 31 Aug 2019, 15:59, edited 1 time in total.
"It doesn't have to be about the Church (church) all the time!" -- SD

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."

A man asked Jesus "do all roads lead to you?" Jesus responds,”most roads don’t lead anywhere, but I will travel any road to find you.” Adapted from The Shack, William Young

Roy
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Re: Education is a Comandment...

Post by Roy » 19 Aug 2019, 09:31

First allow me to say that I LOVE the church's emphasis on education. I work and live around many people that do not seem to be motivated or supported in this direction that I believe would benefit by post high school education. Some of them might even be better at my job than I am but they would be prohibited from even applying because of not meeting the educational requirement. Our church does a better than average job at driving its young members into post high school education (Pathways is just one great example. Perpetual Education Fund is another.).
Kipper wrote:
16 Aug 2019, 21:31
It's more complicated than "it's never too late" so I'm not going to explain. This issue alone is almost enough to make me disappear.
I too remember your story Kipper. I know of individuals that were pushed into starting a family young and having lots of kids until they felt trapped. I know of a woman that broke off an engagement to an otherwise amazing man because he couldn't take her to the temple. Now ten years later she is still single and she wonders if she missed her best chance at married happiness. I do believe in maintaining hope and working towards a better future but I also believe that some opportunities might never reappear.

We can make decisions that blow-up spectacularly. We all have a few doozies. But hopefully we can own our decisions and our privilege of self-determination. Church leaders need to staff the church. Sometimes they will say what they need to say in order to do so. When DW was pregnant and called into a high profile calling we had reservations. DW had experienced progressively worse post-partum depression with our other two children. Our bishop promised us blessings. Our child was stillborn, we almost left the church, and our marriage very nearly imploded.

I don't mean to say that Church leaders making promises of divine favor are being deceitful. They really do believe that this is the Lord's organization and that He will bless you in both seen and unseen ways for your dedicated service. I now believe that our bishop made promises on God's behalf that he had no authority to make. To be fair to our bishop, we expressed our reservations in a way that surrendered our decision making power over to the bishop. We said essentially, "Bishop, here is some information you may not have been aware of. Do you still feel inspired to extend this demanding, stressful, and time consuming?" What was he supposed to say? "Oh never mind then, I did not realize that you had unseen challenges in you personal life. We will go back to the drawing board and give this calling to someone else."

To be fair to us, This is what we had been taught. We really did believe that the bishop and his inspiration knew best. Early on in our marriage we had been arguing. I suggested that we go to our bishop for counseling. That is the level of trust that I had been indoctrinated to have in the bishop of my ward. I thought that Satan and his contention was trying to tear us apart and that the bishop, as the most accessible representative of the Lord, was the clear anti-toxin. He could set us straight and help us to identify the eternal priorities in our married life. Thankfully, the bishop in this particular ward recognized his limitations and told us that he could refer us to LDS social services if we wanted (a lengthy drive) but he had no expertise.

I am sorry for your struggle Kipper. Your feelings are valid. I hope that as you move forward you are able to somehow pick up the broken pieces and make the best of it. That particular educational opportunity may have sailed. At the same time, none of us are getting any younger and there may be opportunities in our lives today that we are not pursuing. There are opportunity costs to our every decision. Maybe those things we pursue will work out - maybe they won't. But I hope from this point forward we can make those decisions based upon what we ourselves thought was best.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13

Kipper
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Re: Education is a Comandment...

Post by Kipper » 28 Aug 2019, 03:56

First off I need to say you all are amazing and you deserve to hear it from me. I read your replies weeks ago but I just can't quite figure myself out. I go back and forth from feeling lame and weak for allowing myself to be compelled, to a feeling of being taken advantage of my "reactivated" situation. This takes me from depression to anger and nothing in between.
SilentDawning wrote:
18 Aug 2019, 16:13
</s>
...It's made me miserable most of my life. It underscores, again, boundaries, about making your own decisions based on your unique circumstances, considering church leader advice, but not letting it run your life. No one promoting decisions that you accept has any accountability for the circumstances such a decision leaves you in if it doesn't work out.
SD I feel what you are dealing with. I feel that accountability would resolve this toxic situation but since that's not going to happen do I really belong where my attitude trumps my progress? (Rhetorical)

Kipper
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Re: Education is a Comandment...

Post by Kipper » 28 Aug 2019, 04:14

Roy wrote:
19 Aug 2019, 09:31

We can make decisions that blow-up spectacularly. We all have a few doozies. But hopefully we can own our decisions and our privilege of self-determination. Church leaders need to staff the church. Sometimes they will say what they need to say in order to do so. When DW was pregnant and called into a high profile calling we had reservations. DW had experienced progressively worse post-partum depression with our other two children. Our bishop promised us blessings. Our child was stillborn, we almost left the church, and our marriage very nearly imploded.

I don't mean to say that Church leaders making promises of divine favor are being deceitful. They really do believe that this is the Lord's organization and that He will bless you in both seen and unseen ways for your dedicated service. I now believe that our bishop made promises on God's behalf that he had no authority to make. To be fair to our bishop, we expressed our reservations in a way that surrendered our decision making power over to the bishop. We said essentially, "Bishop, here is some information you may not have been aware of. Do you still feel inspired to extend this demanding, stressful, and time consuming?" What was he supposed to say? "Oh never mind then, I did not realize that you had unseen challenges in you personal life. We will go back to the drawing board and give this calling to someone else."



I am sorry for your struggle Kipper. Your feelings are valid. I hope that as you move forward you are able to somehow pick up the broken pieces and make the best of it. That particular educational opportunity may have sailed. At the same time, none of us are getting any younger and there may be opportunities in our lives today that we are not pursuing. There are opportunity costs to our every decision. Maybe those things we pursue will work out - maybe they won't. But I hope from this point forward we can make those decisions based upon what we ourselves thought was best.
Roy I am so sorry you had to go through that unbelievable ordeal. I'm not so sure I could have emerged so well after that. I can't even deal with mine. But you sure are able to offer some helpful input, some things I could take council.

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PazamaManX
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Re: Education is a Comandment...

Post by PazamaManX » 28 Aug 2019, 17:51

Kipper wrote:
16 Aug 2019, 21:31
I have no issue with that but more and more I am hearing how we should educate ourselves continually but what if the church places you in a calling that you're not ready for and takes 5 years out of your life while in the middle of an education. All this after being newly re-activated and compelled to accept "calls from god to build the kingdom...don't worry, it will all work out." Except it didn't.

I know this sounds callous and will offend some but I am living this every day and I can't stay gainfully employed now without the education I forfeited.
I can certainly relate. I had a job waiting for me right out of high school doing exactly what I wanted to do. I had plans to start college and would have been off to a racing start at adulthood. Instead I made the mistake of going on a mission. I heard and was told endless times that all the good things happening before going was just "satan trying to keep you off your mission" and "Don't worry, the lord will bless you and you won't miss a thing." Well, my mission went horribly and the emotional damage from it delayed getting life going afterwards. Had I not gone I would've gotten a degree, and quite possibly could have been in a very rewarding career by now. But who knows.

Roy wrote:
19 Aug 2019, 09:31


To be fair to our bishop, we expressed our reservations in a way that surrendered our decision making power over to the bishop. We said essentially, "Bishop, here is some information you may not have been aware of. Do you still feel inspired to extend this demanding, stressful, and time consuming?" What was he supposed to say? "Oh never mind then, I did not realize that you had unseen challenges in you personal life. We will go back to the drawing board and give this calling to someone else."

My parent's bishop did this shortly after I was born. They had just gotten a new house, my dad had just gotten a new position and larger workload at work, and I had just been born. The bishop felt "inspired" to extend a very time consuming and demanding calling to my mom. She explained everything going on in their lives at the time and said that the calling would be too much to handle. The bishop said essentially, "I'm sorry, I didn't know all that before. I rescind the call from you."
"Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness, even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear." ~ Thomas Jefferson

Roy
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Re: Education is a Comandment...

Post by Roy » 29 Aug 2019, 08:51

PazamaManX wrote:
28 Aug 2019, 17:51
My parent's bishop did this shortly after I was born. They had just gotten a new house, my dad had just gotten a new position and larger workload at work, and I had just been born. The bishop felt "inspired" to extend a very time consuming and demanding calling to my mom. She explained everything going on in their lives at the time and said that the calling would be too much to handle. The bishop said essentially, "I'm sorry, I didn't know all that before. I rescind the call from you."
That is wonderful PazamaMan. The old joke goes "how much of that calling is inspiration and how much of it is desperation?" In my experience bishops are pretty desperate (as are many volunteer organizations). I am thankful that your parent's bishop was unwilling (once he knew the facts) to burden your family further with such a stressful calling.
Kipper wrote:
28 Aug 2019, 04:14
Roy I am so sorry you had to go through that unbelievable ordeal. I'm not so sure I could have emerged so well after that. I can't even deal with mine. But you sure are able to offer some helpful input, some things I could take council.
Thanks Kipper. It truly was my personal "dark night of the soul" and left me forever changed.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13

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