Another TR and Garment Issue/Question

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hawkgrrrl
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Re: Another TR and Garment Issue/Question

Post by hawkgrrrl » 12 Aug 2019, 16:22

Regarding "defiling" the garment, I have a slightly different take on that than Curtis. When I was on my mission, since I had bought my garments without much experience wearing them, I had a real variety of them, some of which were just terrible choices for me, but it was what I had, and there were no temples in the country I served in. Some of the garments I had were the cotton/poly that they (for some unfathomable reason) had put a band of elastic around the leg bottom in. It gave me welts wherever it touched my bare leg. I am allergic to medical tape, latex, and apparently raw elastic rubbing against my skin.

To remedy this, I took a pair of scissors and snipped the lace / elastic band on each leg so it wouldn't rub against my skin. My companion gasped when she saw it. "Hermana! You're defiling your garments!" she said in shock. "No," I replied. "THEY are defiling me!" Then I showed her the welts.

I guess what I mean by that is that we are made in the image of God. Do we believe that or not? Doesn't our health matter? Doesn't our emotional and sexual health matter? Doesn't our comfort matter?

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Cadence
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Re: Another TR and Garment Issue/Question

Post by Cadence » 12 Aug 2019, 17:48

I predict garments will be eliminated from everyday wear within 10 years. It will all be a moot point then.


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Curt Sunshine
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Re: Another TR and Garment Issue/Question

Post by Curt Sunshine » 12 Aug 2019, 19:21

I'm not sure where Hawk and I disagree. I don't think what she did defiled her garment in any way.

I twist things. It is not a nervous habit; it simply is something I do without thinking when my hands are not occupied and I have material within reach to twist. Sometimes, I find myself twisting border/edge material on the garment. I don't see that as defiling in any way, since there is nothing that makes it unnecessarily "filthy" or "valueless" about it.

My action is not necessary or healthy in any way, like Hawk's action. I would find it harder to defend mine convincingly than hers to an orthodox member, if I was forced to do so. However, I don't worry about defending either action, since I think there is nothing important to defend in either situation. To me, neither is defiling the garment in any way.

The garment was made for us, not us for the garment.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

Minyan Man
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Re: Another TR and Garment Issue/Question

Post by Minyan Man » 12 Aug 2019, 20:34

Curt Sunshine wrote:
12 Aug 2019, 19:21
...The garment was made for us, not us for the garment.

Curt, can you explain this further? I've heard it before. But, I'm not sure what it means.

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QuestionAbound
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Re: Another TR and Garment Issue/Question

Post by QuestionAbound » 13 Aug 2019, 06:59

hawkgrrrl wrote:
12 Aug 2019, 13:18
Question Abound: Speaking as a woman, garments make interest in sex at all pretty difficult. Feeling fat, frumpy and unattractive isn't exactly a recipe for desire. Some women find that they need to forego them hours in advance to even become interested or receptive to sex. There's a reason we used to call them "passion killers" at BYU.
And for me...I would rather hide behind clothing (of any kind) instead of letting my bellies hang out for my husband to see. :lol:
I guess G's keep me covered. ha!
PLUS, it helps to have something on in case a kid knocks at the door or barges in during cuddle time. :wtf:

To Curt's comments, gotcha!!
Roy wrote:
12 Aug 2019, 11:59
From what I know of Curt, he is a man of moderation. Therefore, there could be extremes to:
1) Go to great lengths to keep the garment on in some form during sexual activity.
2) Remove the garment before any sexual activity to prevent defiling it - to include foreplay, flirtation, and caressing.

Both of these scenarios are just strange and impractical. I imagine that Curt is somewhere in the middle - as are the rest of us who use garments. I know that he would advocate personal judgement and what feels right and appropriate for you. It would be highly inappropriate for anyone (church leader or random people from the internet) to try and tell you what you should be wearing or not during sexual activity. "Teach correct principles and let them govern themselves."
Excellent, excellent examples and summary.

And this is why I come here for discussions. I don't contribute much, but I do learn a lot. At least...you all give me things to think about in a new way. :thumbup:

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hawkgrrrl
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Re: Another TR and Garment Issue/Question

Post by hawkgrrrl » 13 Aug 2019, 12:47

Minyan Man wrote:
12 Aug 2019, 20:34
Curt Sunshine wrote:
12 Aug 2019, 19:21
...The garment was made for us, not us for the garment.

Curt, can you explain this further? I've heard it before. But, I'm not sure what it means.
Curt is modifying the scripture that the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath, meaning that human needs trump rules (that are presumably designed for humans or at least human society).

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Re: Another TR and Garment Issue/Question

Post by Curt Sunshine » 13 Aug 2019, 19:50

Exactly.

When the Sabbath becomes more important than people, it has lost its meaning. The same is true of the garment. It should serve us; we shouldn't be burdened by legalistic rules about its use. "Wear it throughout your life, and don't defile it," is good enough.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

Kipper
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Re: Another TR and Garment Issue/Question

Post by Kipper » 13 Aug 2019, 22:59

Curt Sunshine wrote:
13 Aug 2019, 19:50
Exactly.

When the Sabbath becomes more important than people, it has lost its meaning. The same is true of the garment. It should serve us; we shouldn't be burdened by legalistic rules about its use. "Wear it throughout your life, and don't defile it," is good enough.
:thumbup: :thumbup:

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hawkgrrrl
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Re: Another TR and Garment Issue/Question

Post by hawkgrrrl » 04 Sep 2019, 15:45

DarkJedi:
75% of the Silent Generation and Baby Boomers (those born before 1964 and counted together) believe it is OK to remove garments for sex. Only 51% per Millennials believed that. :wtf: Honestly I'm not sure if there was something wrong with the way that question was asked or understood but it's absolutely crazy.
I saw that in the book, too, and my first reaction was WHAT???? But my current theory is that those Millenials they asked who are NOT endowed were making assumptions due to how controlling and intrusive the believe the Church is, that they would assume that those who are endowed are "required" to keep them on during sex. I mean, if so, no wonder they aren't endowed!

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