Another TR and Garment Issue/Question

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hawkgrrrl
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Re: Another TR and Garment Issue/Question

Post by hawkgrrrl » 12 Aug 2019, 10:43

I've seen DW's new garment tops. Compared to my garment tops, hers are practically a tank top. Garment tops for women weren't like that even a few short years ago. The garment was modified to accommodate clothing styles.
Whether that's the reason for the change is questionable, though. The new tops you are talking about also provide more support in the bust and have side-wicking panels for heat management (which is kind of crazy because they are also unwearable in a hot climate, go figure), so it's not just a question of accommodating "styles." It's also making some improvements to performance.

Having said that, there are no appropriate garments for summers in AZ or everyday in Singapore (90% heat / 90% humidity, 365 days a year). In Singapore, garments mean you are drenched and your clothes are drenched every single day, at least as a woman. It's (in my opinion), not appropriate to require wearing them; it causes extreme professional and personal embarrassment. It can cause yeast infections, which are obviously just a female problem, but something some women suffer more than others. Nobody making the decisions about garments has to worry about yeast infections. They are just terrified of being seen as "giving into social pressure."

One of my favorite tweets was:
"We all know that Joseph Smith didn't wear his garments at Carthage, but did you also know he never wore them during menopause?"
Body chemistry changes during menopause, and women are more prone to problems caused by overheating or as Roseanne Barr (somewhat crassly) put it "Everything that's supposed to be wet is dry, and everything that's supposed to be dry is wet."

But here's the deal. It is utterly inappropriate for a woman to have this kind of conversation with a bishop or one of his counselors or a member of the stake presidency. I am not going to talk to a dentist or lawyer or small business owner about my personal health related issues that are private and would not be understood by a male lay person who sits in judgment. Not going to happen. That we even have such an expectation is kind of bonkers.

Kipper
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Re: Another TR and Garment Issue/Question

Post by Kipper » 12 Aug 2019, 11:40

My gosh, the information I get here is so insightful, or maybe I'm so isolated that I just don't find reasonable input from anywhere else. The new posts this morning were especially helpful. And it's not that I am being changed by anyone's opinions I'm just able to see myself and my own thoughts clearly and feel validated. Thank you all for being so willing to share and being honest with your thoughts and helping me understand myself and my needs. Being isolated with my thoughts and questions makes me feel like something is wrong with me. Bottom line is I do feel worthy.

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QuestionAbound
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Re: Another TR and Garment Issue/Question

Post by QuestionAbound » 12 Aug 2019, 11:44

Curt Sunshine wrote:
11 Aug 2019, 18:51
I never wear it during any kind of sexual activity...
This is such a personal question, but I have honestly never considered that wearing garments during "any kind" of sexual activity could be defiling them. Like, this is a brand new thought to me and I'm super intrigued. I'm all about trying new things as I work through all of this, so...do you really take them off before "any" activity? Does your wife do the same?

I mean, I get that we need to work according to our conscience, but maybe you've found an idea that may help me (and others?).
Thanks!

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felixfabulous
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Re: Another TR and Garment Issue/Question

Post by felixfabulous » 12 Aug 2019, 11:46

1. You never made a covenant in the temple to wear your garments;
2. You were instructed to "wear it throughout your life" which gives you a lot of personal latitude in deciding how you do that;
3. If this is an area that is up to personal interpretation (and I believe it is) why in the world are we asking people about something so personal (it doesn't get more personal than underwear) in an interview?

Roy
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Re: Another TR and Garment Issue/Question

Post by Roy » 12 Aug 2019, 11:59

From what I know of Curt, he is a man of moderation. Therefore, there could be extremes to:
1) Go to great lengths to keep the garment on in some form during sexual activity.
2) Remove the garment before any sexual activity to prevent defiling it - to include foreplay, flirtation, and caressing.

Both of these scenarios are just strange and impractical. I imagine that Curt is somewhere in the middle - as are the rest of us who use garments. I know that he would advocate personal judgement and what feels right and appropriate for you. It would be highly inappropriate for anyone (church leader or random people from the internet) to try and tell you what you should be wearing or not during sexual activity. "Teach correct principles and let them govern themselves."
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hawkgrrrl
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Re: Another TR and Garment Issue/Question

Post by hawkgrrrl » 12 Aug 2019, 13:18

Question Abound: Speaking as a woman, garments make interest in sex at all pretty difficult. Feeling fat, frumpy and unattractive isn't exactly a recipe for desire. Some women find that they need to forego them hours in advance to even become interested or receptive to sex. There's a reason we used to call them "passion killers" at BYU.

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Re: Another TR and Garment Issue/Question

Post by nibbler » 12 Aug 2019, 13:21

Followup question: do leaders see that as a bug or a feature?

Curt Sunshine
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Re: Another TR and Garment Issue/Question

Post by Curt Sunshine » 12 Aug 2019, 15:30

I might have worded my response a bit inaccurately in an attempt to avoid being explicit.

I do what I can to avoid "defiling" the garment, but the reason I don't wear them during any kind of sexual activity has nothing to do with defiling them. It is all about not letting them get in the way of any sexual activity - even situations like extended flirtation, foreplay, wanting to wake up and cuddle without them, etc. Garments are not conducive to healthy sexual activity ***for me and my wife***, so we are more liberal than many other members about when we don't wear them.

My intent simply was to say that there are plenty of legitimate reasons not to wear the garment constantly, night and day, and that not wearing them at times you feel are fine is honoring and following the actual covenant you make in the temple.

For example, some people have body image issues that are increased to harmful levels by wearing the garment. In those cases, I will never argue with or criticize anyone who puts it on at some point to show respect for the symbolism and immediately removes it to remain healthy. I refuse to criticize and argue about it, frankly, because it is none of my business. It is between each person and God.

That also is why I recommend answering "Yes" and nothing more to the question. It is none of the interviewer's business exactly how you wear it.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

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DarkJedi
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Re: Another TR and Garment Issue/Question

Post by DarkJedi » 12 Aug 2019, 15:47

QuestionAbound wrote:
12 Aug 2019, 11:44
Curt Sunshine wrote:
11 Aug 2019, 18:51
I never wear it during any kind of sexual activity...
This is such a personal question, but I have honestly never considered that wearing garments during "any kind" of sexual activity could be defiling them. Like, this is a brand new thought to me and I'm super intrigued. I'm all about trying new things as I work through all of this, so...do you really take them off before "any" activity? Does your wife do the same?

I mean, I get that we need to work according to our conscience, but maybe you've found an idea that may help me (and others?).
Thanks!
One of those little things I found interesting in The Next Mormons, How Millennials Are Changing the Church"
about wearing garments:

75% of the Silent Generation and Baby Boomers (those born before 1964 and counted together) believe it is OK to remove garments for sex. Only 51% per Millennials believed that. :wtf: Honestly I'm not sure if there was something wrong with the way that question was asked or understood but it's absolutely crazy. I can't imagine my son & DIL even thinking that it was not OK. Of course I also know they remove their garments for exercise, manual labor, very hot days, etc.

FWIW, generally Millennials had a much more relaxed to taking off garments. The only other scenario where Millennials were more stringent was illness.(see table page 65)
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

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DarkJedi
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Re: Another TR and Garment Issue/Question

Post by DarkJedi » 12 Aug 2019, 15:55

Hawk mentioned the new garment material (stretch cotton with the "ventilated" side panel). I have only tried the top and won't try the bottoms because I think they would be too constricting and may cause a "swampiness" (something this Grinch can't stand in the least). I generally like the top because it is mostly comfortable, the crew neck is lower than the extremely high crew neck of other garments, the sleeves are shorter, there is no tag, and the marks are printed and not sewn. The biggest downside of the top: like the nylon mesh (which those in Utah seem to think are great in hot weather), they are abysmal on the triple H days in the northeast (hazy, hot, humid). Those latter days are the most likely reason I remove my garments (previous post excepted). FWIW, my own preference for our summer climate is Dri Lux.

My questions is, if they can change the style of the new garment material, why can't they do it with the other materials?
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

My Introduction

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