Another TR and Garment Issue/Question

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Kipper
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Another TR and Garment Issue/Question

Post by Kipper » 11 Aug 2019, 13:50

I apologize for bringing this up here again, I know this topic is discussed over and over and it's like asking what is the best oil to use in a motorcycle discussion group, it's heard all too often and there are as many view points as there are responses.

But I'm at a critical point with this. I had a TR interview with our bishop 1st councilor today and got most of the way through until the question "do you wear your temple garment every day and every night", my answer was I could do better. We agreed that any specific questions I had could be asked at the stake level interview then he had me read the paragraph about wearing garments which included not removing garments while working in the yard. I forgot this was in there or just didn't remember but this is going to be a problem, best I can do is say I'll try. I'm wondering if they will deny my TR based on this and anyway why is this "outward manifestation of commitment" a covenant? I often sit out back just wearing shorts and no shirt and tool around the yard. Proly not going to change that entirely. He said the most important question was "do you feel yourself worthy to enter the Lord's temple". I'm afraid their answer might not match mine based on wearing garments.

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DarkJedi
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Re: Another TR and Garment Issue/Question

Post by DarkJedi » 11 Aug 2019, 16:09

No one here can answer your question because of leadership roulette. Some leaders will be fine, others won't. And you've got what you've got.

That said, there is a line like this in that statement they read:
Members who have made covenants in the temple should be guided by the Holy Spirit to answer for themselves personal questions about wearing the garment.
Depending on interpretation that could be an out. While I generally do wear my garments, I sometimes take them off at times when the most stringent (Pharisaical) might think I should not. Since it does seem to be my responsibility to be guided about such personal questions, I don't feel I'm violating anything when I do take them off. The actual question asks if I wear the garment as instructed in the temple. I don't recall any other instruction than that I wear them throughout my life. I am therefore very comfortable in answering the question yes. But that's my answer, not yours.

FWIW, I answer almost exclusively yes or no as appropriate. I have sometimes answered the honesty question "I sure try." I never elaborate or give more than the yes, no, or I sure try answer.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

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Minyan Man
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Re: Another TR and Garment Issue/Question

Post by Minyan Man » 11 Aug 2019, 18:00

I remember when I came back & went through the TR questions for the first time with my Bishop. I said I never wear my garment
when I go to the Doctor or the Gym. He said he didn't either. This told me that there are variations of compliance. It appears that
it is left to the individual for some leadership positions in the church. I am not naive. There are Bishops & SP that will take the orthodox position
as stated in the temple. I've known some of them personally.

We never discuss it in church but, Joseph & Hiram Smith when they went to Carthage were not wearing their garments.

Curt Sunshine
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Re: Another TR and Garment Issue/Question

Post by Curt Sunshine » 11 Aug 2019, 18:51

The question is a loaded one, honestly, since "both day and night" doesn't match the actual temple covenant. However, the "out" for me to give an honest but heterodox answer of "Yes" is the wording, "as instructed in the temple".

I wear the garment during the day and during the night - in most cases and situations. I wear it 100% in accordance with the actual temple covenant: throughout my life and in a way that does not defile it. For example, there are times I don't wear it when I feel would be defiling it - like when I am sweating profusely. (e.g., mowing my lawn) I do sometimes, but not other times. I never wear it during any kind of sexual activity, which can include while I am sleeping in some situations. That is highly subjective, but I follow my conscience.

In short, I am completely fine with my commitment to the actual temple covenant, so I answer "Yes" and don't elaborate. What that means is my call, not anyone else's. Period.
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mom3
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Re: Another TR and Garment Issue/Question

Post by mom3 » 11 Aug 2019, 22:02

I am with everyone else. Less discussion the better. Just answer as needed. Leave it between you and God.
"I stayed because it was God and Jesus Christ that I wanted to follow and be like, not individual human beings." Chieko Okazaki Dialogue interview

"I am coming to envision a new persona for the Church as humble followers of Jesus Christ....Joseph and his early followers came forth with lots of triumphalist rhetoric, but I think we need a new voice, one of humility, friendship and service. We should teach people to believe in God because it will soften their hearts and make them more willing to serve." - Richard Bushman

Kipper
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Re: Another TR and Garment Issue/Question

Post by Kipper » 12 Aug 2019, 00:03

All good comments, thank you. Interesting how the words every day and every night got in there, I have suffered from severe heat rashes due to sweat and garments sticking to my skin in the shop at work and I feel confused about not taking your shirt off in the yard. There are things I just would not be able to do with wearing insulation under my clothing like my extreme bicycle rides. I don't know how farmers can do it. I will be attending the temple before I go to the SP interview since I haven't expired yet so I'll be able to get a better feel for my understanding and direct answers. Interesting about Carthage Jail. Thanks again for all the insight.

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nibbler
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Re: Another TR and Garment Issue/Question

Post by nibbler » 12 Aug 2019, 04:21

I agree with what others have said, so I won't repeat too much of it. ;) I did want to point out a few things though:
Kipper wrote:
12 Aug 2019, 00:03
Interesting how the words every day and every night got in there
I believe the actual language is:
It is expected that members will wear the garment both night and day, according to covenants made in the temple.
Note that the word "every" is not present. The word "all" is similarly not present. I see the two extremes that are still compliant with that statement as:
1) Wear the garment exactly once at night time and exactly once during the day, but never again. Or maybe someone could push it even further and say as long as they put on the garment, even if they take it off immediately after... because it's always night and day somewhere.
2) Put garments on and never take them off. Come up with a system were when you change out dirty garments you put on a second pair and then take the dirty ones off. Or maybe you shower with the dirty pair and use that as an opportunity to wash the garment too. Plan ahead though, they'll take time to dry.

I don't think either extreme is in the spirit of the law. Everyone that has received their endowment picks somewhere in in the middle of those extremes. Now I worry that "every" is going to show up in a newly released instruction.
Many men go fishing all of their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after.
— Henry David Thoreau

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nibbler
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Re: Another TR and Garment Issue/Question

Post by nibbler » 12 Aug 2019, 04:21

Kipper wrote:
11 Aug 2019, 13:50
He said the most important question was "do you feel yourself worthy to enter the Lord's temple". I'm afraid their answer might not match mine based on wearing garments.
Yes, that's the most important question but I wanted to touch on the thought that their answer might not match yours. In my opinion, that's the way it should be. Your bishop, stake president, and their counselors answer that question for themselves during their own TR interview but they can't answer that question on your behalf during your interview.

This is where simple "yes" and "no" answers without elaboration come into play. If you elaborate it could invite the interviewer to supplant the way they define their relationship with god on top of your definition. You'd no longer be answering for yourself, you'd be answering through their filter.
Many men go fishing all of their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after.
— Henry David Thoreau

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nibbler
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Re: Another TR and Garment Issue/Question

Post by nibbler » 12 Aug 2019, 04:58

A few more things, then I'll have it out of my system. :smile:

Quotes come from the paragraphs read during the TR interview.
Members should not adjust the garment or wear it contrary to instructions in order to accommodate different styles of clothing, even when such clothing may be generally accepted.
People in an official capacity that have adjusted the garment over the years to accommodate different styles of clothing must not have been members of the church. ;)

I've seen DW's new garment tops. Compared to my garment tops, hers are practically a tank top. Garment tops for women weren't like that even a few short years ago. The garment was modified to accommodate clothing styles. :o

Garment styles have changed several times; garments once came down to the ankles and the wrists.
The garment should not be removed, either entirely or partially, to work in the yard or for other activities that can reasonably be done with the garment worn properly beneath the clothing.
Emphasis added to highlight all the wiggle room one needs. I don't consider doing yard work with two layers of clothing on in 95 degree weather and 65% humidity as being reasonable.

Move church headquarters to a place that actually gets above 20% humidity and I bet that line would have never made it into the instructions... then again, there would probably be people peering out from behind their blinds with binoculars no matter where church headquarters happened to be.
Members who have made covenants in the temple should be guided by the Holy Spirit to answer for themselves personal questions about wearing the garment. These sacred covenants are between the member and the Lord, and the proper wearing of the garment is an outward expression of an inner commitment.
This (final) paragraph in the instructions that are read is all that's really needed. It's between the individual and the lord.
Many men go fishing all of their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after.
— Henry David Thoreau

Roy
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Re: Another TR and Garment Issue/Question

Post by Roy » 12 Aug 2019, 10:22

Wonderful information already supplied in this thread. I just want to reiterate that a best practice for the TR interview is to decide before hand how you are going to answer the questions in Yes or No format. If you can answer the questions affirmatively then move forward. If you cannot then why go through the TR interview only to get denied?
I do not recommend going in for the interview and then laying out your various levels of belief and doubt, behavioral compliance and non-compliance and then deferring to the church leader's personal judgement if that qualifies as worthy or not. You may get lucky and find a leader that is incredibly validating and affirming of your journey and is willing to nurture your faithful side (Lord, I believe. Help thou my unbelief.) You may also get an old school leader that takes a very narrow and punitive view of repentance and drawing closer to God.
In general, if you are asking LDS members permission to be non-traditional you will be discouraged. We have too much of a culture of obedience and following the "Lord's" program to allow for that. Take your free agency and personal revelation and use it (discreetly) to make personal life decisions and then interface with the larger body of saints as best you can.
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