Are we the church of the WoW?

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grobert93
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Re: Are we the church of the WoW?

Post by grobert93 » 05 Mar 2020, 09:20

Roy wrote:
04 Mar 2020, 14:52
I was discussing with a friend about the definition of addiction (he was using the term addiction very broadly to include things that we might do as coping mechanisms and strategies like comfort eating, video games, or Netflix) and he referred me to the church manual on addiction.

I was surprised to find the following:
Addictions can include the use of substances such as tobacco, alcohol, coffee, tea, and drugs (both prescription and illegal), and behaviors such as gambling, codependency, viewing pornography, inappropriate sexual behavior, and disorders associated with eating. These substances and behaviors diminish a person’s ability to feel the Spirit. They harm physical and mental health and social, emotional, and spiritual well-being.
https://addictionrecovery.churchofjesus ... f?lang=eng

I was quite surprised that the consumption of tea was included in this definition. After some preliminary research it appears that tea can/does contain caffeine. Still, it seems strange to single it out when there are energy drinks and other substances with greater addictive power. I surmise that tea was included because of the tradition of having it as a prohibited substance from the early interpretations of the WoW but I am certainly not an expert in this arena.
I love bringing up this "problem" to my believing friends. You're telling me that the one true church in 2020 will refuse to issue me a temple recommend and allow me to enter the temple even to view my friend's wedding because I drank tea or had coffee that calms my anxiety, but meanwhile the rest of you can guzzle down energy drinks, McDonalds and bing watch Netflix the night before and be "qualified" to enter? They always say the lord's ways are higher, or we don't understand all things.

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nibbler
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Re: Are we the church of the WoW?

Post by nibbler » 05 Mar 2020, 10:25

I've said it before, I'll say it again.

Frankly it's shocking that in the year 2020 the church still considers consumption of tea or coffee as something that has any bearing whatsoever on people's worthiness.

I thought that matter was settled in the New Testament like 2000 years ago. "Not what goes into the mouth defiles a man..."

But it's long been my opinion that, in our zeal to restore the fullness of the gospel, we inadvertently restored some Old Testament stuff that was meant to go away.
It’s strange. When I couldn’t find the drop and the plague came, you seemed so far away I would not ever be able to find you again. But I know now that you were here all along, and that nothing, not the Black Death nor seven hundred years, nor death nor things to come nor any other creature could ever separate me from your caring and concern. It was with me every minute.
― Connie Willis , Doomsday Book

grobert93
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Joined: 30 Nov 2015, 16:05

Re: Are we the church of the WoW?

Post by grobert93 » 06 Mar 2020, 07:34

nibbler wrote:
05 Mar 2020, 10:25
I've said it before, I'll say it again.

Frankly it's shocking that in the year 2020 the church still considers consumption of tea or coffee as something that has any bearing whatsoever on people's worthiness.

I thought that matter was settled in the New Testament like 2000 years ago. "Not what goes into the mouth defiles a man..."

But it's long been my opinion that, in our zeal to restore the fullness of the gospel, we inadvertently restored some Old Testament stuff that was meant to go away.
If you convince enough people to trust in their feelings more than their minds, you can convince them to believe a lot of things. I truly believed as a former missionary, that the word of wisdom was inspired from god and that satan was using the world to challenge the truth of the commandment. I was convinced that we as members needed to stay strong during the difficult and challenging last days. I was sure that coffee and tea were invented by the devil to tempt us to stray off the straight and narrow.

Yet... a few years later and you probably wouldn't even call me a mormon anymore. I've "lost" so much "faith" that one could call me "fallen". It's certainly not how I feel about myself, but the old me would view the current me as such.

I think as humans we strive off of rules, a leader to follow and a cause to be proud of. For mormons, it's their prophet and commandments. If nelson did one day adjust the word of wisdom, everyone would praise him for revelation even if the adjustments were in line with science and medicine. But for now, they defend him as a prophet of god, the word of wisdom as inspired for our day and will continue to enjoy their sugary factory produced beverages because god still finds those drinks ok enough.

Curt Sunshine
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Re: Are we the church of the WoW?

Post by Curt Sunshine » 07 Mar 2020, 08:49

I have said this previously, but I do believe the principle of the Word of Wisdom (being aware of conniving people who use addiction for personal profit and then us using that wisdom properly) was and is inspired. I believe it goes WAY beyond the narrow constraints of how we have interpreted and applied it - both by ignoring other addiction gravy trains and by making it an entrance requirement into the church.

I work with a LOT of people whose core problems stem from or were magnified by substance abuse - many of whom didn't have much of a chance due to starting so young. One of the greatest blessings of my life was being raised in a family and culture that allowed me to avoid classic substance use completely - so I never had to cross a line to realize where it was and, perhaps, not be able to cross back. There is an extremely fine line between many people we see as "addicts" and many "normal people" who actually have serious addictions. There is a fine line between those who are jailed for substance abuse and many who are not. "Adapted to the weakest of the weak" is an amazing concept when you see the impact daily on the weakest of the weak when it comes to substance use.

Seriously, I see the blessing every day with so many of the people with whom I work. It is heartbreaking.

Giving up some things I don't need (truly don't need) to avoid potential dire consequences AND provide a safe community for others who are prone to addiction is not a sacrifice to me - but, if it was, it would be one I am willing to make.

I have issues with the way we have interpreted and applied the WofW, but I have come to love and honor the core principle in it.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

grobert93
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Joined: 30 Nov 2015, 16:05

Re: Are we the church of the WoW?

Post by grobert93 » 07 Mar 2020, 09:43

Curt Sunshine wrote:
07 Mar 2020, 08:49
I have said this previously, but I do believe the principle of the Word of Wisdom (being aware of conniving people who use addiction for personal profit and then us using that wisdom properly) was and is inspired. I believe it goes WAY beyond the narrow constraints of how we have interpreted and applied it - both by ignoring other addiction gravy trains and by making it an entrance requirement into the church.

I work with a LOT of people whose core problems stem from or were magnified by substance abuse - many of whom didn't have much of a chance due to starting so young. One of the greatest blessings of my life was being raised in a family and culture that allowed me to avoid classic substance use completely - so I never had to cross a line to realize where it was and, perhaps, not be able to cross back. There is an extremely fine line between many people we see as "addicts" and many "normal people" who actually have serious addictions. There is a fine line between those who are jailed for substance abuse and many who are not. "Adapted to the weakest of the weak" is an amazing concept when you see the impact daily on the weakest of the weak when it comes to substance use.

Seriously, I see the blessing every day with so many of the people with whom I work. It is heartbreaking.

Giving up some things I don't need (truly don't need) to avoid potential dire consequences AND provide a safe community for others who are prone to addiction is not a sacrifice to me - but, if it was, it would be one I am willing to make.

I have issues with the way we have interpreted and applied the WofW, but I have come to love and honor the core principle in it.
I'm with you. the principle is genius. It's smart. It's responsible. It's the interpretation and thus excuse to police others over silly things like coffee and tea vs energy drink and donuts that makes it look bad. Essentially, the word of wisdom's principle gets overshadowed by cultural interpretation and thus justification for abuse and neglect toward others over choices.

I grew up with my dad teaching me how the word of wisdom was NOT about coffee and tea but about medicine, addiction and caring for our bodies. If this was the main teaching point at church and conference, then I'd give the church much more respect. It's actually critical to realize how addictive things can be for our bodies, how overdependent we can be over substances and how easily we can forget how miraculous our bodies are.

So yeah, you're right. Take away the policing cultures and the word of wisdom has a lot of wisdom. Enough to justify as pseudo-commandment to prohibit membership into temple? Maybe not.

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