Are we the church of the WoW?

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DarkJedi
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Re: Are we the church of the WoW?

Post by DarkJedi » 17 Aug 2019, 09:37

So instead of seeing a relaxation that has been rumored and hoped for, it appears we are seeing a bit of the opposite for the moment. That's a bit sad. There is a part of a chapter in The Next Mormons that addresses belief and adherence to the WoW. About a third of us (all generations) at least sometimes drink coffee (more among Gen. X and Millennials). I also learned from the book that the first presidency has in the past made statements regarding decaffeinated coffee and that it is not prohibited (I always thought it was). Based on this recent statement, I'm not sure the current leadership would agree.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

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mom3
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Re: Are we the church of the WoW?

Post by mom3 » 17 Aug 2019, 22:00

I heard about this. I am like "meh". I swear our dance with WoW goes from line dancing, to ballroom, to square dancing, then disco. We are in disco phase. It's kind of ugly.

Funny thing is the only people who care are the people who weren't pushing the boundaries beforehand.

The generation they are trying to save, really doesn't care. They will do what they want.

To me this is like flip flops to church. A big Ooooh, Aaahh, then forgotten.

Chai tea anyone?
"I stayed because it was God and Jesus Christ that I wanted to follow and be like, not individual human beings." Chieko Okazaki Dialogue interview

"I am coming to envision a new persona for the Church as humble followers of Jesus Christ....Joseph and his early followers came forth with lots of triumphalist rhetoric, but I think we need a new voice, one of humility, friendship and service. We should teach people to believe in God because it will soften their hearts and make them more willing to serve." - Richard Bushman

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Rumin8
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Re: Are we the church of the WoW?

Post by Rumin8 » 18 Aug 2019, 13:36

This makes me sad, and reiterates the to me the premise of this thread. In business terms, this is our product. I can’t count how many mainstream news articles I saw that linked to the “clarification.” Where once I saw hope for a loosening of the standard, or at least a push towards more self determination, this goes the opposite way. Satan’s plan in action.

Don’t get me wrong, my testimony, or lack thereof is not based on this principle. I will continue to practice it how I have interpreted it. As will everyone else. However, I do view it as a continued a “low hanging fruit” vehicle for judgment. I will continue to live my life as best I know how, and those that judge me for it may continue to do so.
"Moderation in all things, especially moderation." - Ralph Waldo Emerson

"Be excellent to each other." - Abraham Lincoln to Bill & Ted

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mom3
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Re: Are we the church of the WoW?

Post by mom3 » 18 Aug 2019, 14:50

Don’t get me wrong, my testimony, or lack thereof is not based on this principle. I will continue to practice it how I have interpreted it. As will everyone else. However, I do view it as a continued a “low hanging fruit” vehicle for judgment. I will continue to live my life as best I know how, and those that judge me for it may continue to do so.
Our Sacrament Meeting today was about "not judging" this clarification was on my mind the whole time. Because, yes we will use it to judge others. That is our product - Judging. We have a list and expect all team members to comply.

I actually would love to know what pushed the final button on this. Too many Starbucks in the area, Vaping on Temple Square, legalization of Marijuana? What?

It seems totally backwards to the direction and re-inventing that Nelson has been doggedly doing? So what happened? Who started it? And why.
"I stayed because it was God and Jesus Christ that I wanted to follow and be like, not individual human beings." Chieko Okazaki Dialogue interview

"I am coming to envision a new persona for the Church as humble followers of Jesus Christ....Joseph and his early followers came forth with lots of triumphalist rhetoric, but I think we need a new voice, one of humility, friendship and service. We should teach people to believe in God because it will soften their hearts and make them more willing to serve." - Richard Bushman

nibbler
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Re: Are we the church of the WoW?

Post by nibbler » 18 Aug 2019, 16:10

mom3 wrote:
18 Aug 2019, 14:50
It seems totally backwards to the direction and re-inventing that Nelson has been doggedly doing? So what happened? Who started it? And why.
I can think of several possibilities but I think it's related to the rumors about lifting the ban on coffee and tea that went out ahead of the April 2019 general conference. Leaders probably got wind of the rumors and this is their response finally making its way out of the other end of legal and correlation. That and they probably want to kill any rumors out ahead of the October conference.

I hold out a little hope though, and I do say hope for change because personally I think the ban on tea is beyond ridiculous and can't last; and I say this with absolutely no plans to start drinking tea if they should lift the ban, but back to the hope...

Look at the POX. We doubled down on the POX. We triple downed on the POX. We probably excommunicated some people over the POX. Then when enough time passed it got dropped. That seems to be one path to change in the church. Double down, go red faced insisting that this is the way things are, do it some more, excommunicate some high profile people, wait, wait some more, then change. See also: priesthood ban, Sam Young's protect the youth campaign.
Rumin8 wrote:
18 Aug 2019, 13:36
However, I do view it as a continued a “low hanging fruit” vehicle for judgment. I will continue to live my life as best I know how, and those that judge me for it may continue to do so.
Yes. Sadly I think it's another case of humans gonna human. It's easy to see flaws in others and much harder to turn the same scrutiny back on ourselves; hence the parable of the mote and the beam. A few weeks ago in Sunday School we had the lesson on Paul's conversion and we spent the first 10 minutes of class explaining how bad the Pharisees were, mostly because they were so convinced that they were right and so stuck on their rules that they missed the mark and rejected Jesus. I wanted to stand up and shout, "THAT'S US!!!!!" But the dialog was more centered around how relieving it was that we weren't them.

I guess it's super, super hard to tell when your own breath stinks.
Rumin8 wrote:
18 Aug 2019, 13:36
Satan’s plan in action.
This is a growing concern of mine. I don't know how to soften this and I don't want get into it too much but I've had more and more experiences lately where I don't feel that church programs were made for me, I feel more like I'm a servant to the programs.

I think we have trouble walking confidently with god without our checklists and as humans it's super hard to measure how much better or worse we are than others (judge) when we put the rulers away.

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Re: Are we the church of the WoW?

Post by Tica » 18 Aug 2019, 21:55

I agree with much of what has been said, especially regarding the judginess that tends to go along with the WoW.

One other thought that I have FWIW , is that the spirit of the way the WoW is implemented and practiced now may be related to refraining from addictive substances that can impact agency and (depending on the substance) relationships as well. That said, obviously there is a massive difference between something like heroin and something like green tea. And then there are some glaring holes. I think it would be a fascinating social experiment if sugar was added to the clarified list of substances to be avoided... :twisted:

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Rumin8
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Re: Are we the church of the WoW?

Post by Rumin8 » 19 Aug 2019, 14:10

Our Sacrament Meeting today was about "not judging" this clarification was on my mind the whole time. Because, yes we will use it to judge others. That is our product - Judging. We have a list and expect all team members to comply.
This was our topic too. It was GLORIOUS. Best HC talk I've heard in a long time. Enough so that I've emailed the speaker for a copy of his talk. I guarantee I have never done that before.

On top of that, no mention of the WoW double-down, except in our bishopric meeting, where reactions were... mixed.
"Moderation in all things, especially moderation." - Ralph Waldo Emerson

"Be excellent to each other." - Abraham Lincoln to Bill & Ted

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felixfabulous
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Re: Are we the church of the WoW?

Post by felixfabulous » 20 Aug 2019, 11:14

The recent WOW stuff is also a demonstration of the huge generational gap that exists. I wonder how much the leadership is thinking along these lines "the young people are drinking green tea and blended coffee drinks, there must be some confusion out there about whether these are against the WOW." The expectation was likely that people would get the information, understand (and appreciate) the clarification and adjust their behavior accordingly.

My read from a lot of the comments I've seen (and my own personal reaction) is totally different than what was maybe expected and hoped for. It has been largely the reaction on this thread: 1. Why are we commanding people in all things? 2. Why are unhealthy sugary drinks and energy drinks allowed and green tea (which is healthy) is not? 3. Don't we have bigger fish to fry?

There may be some people that will appreciate the clarification and change their behavior, but my guess is that younger liberal members will roll their eyes and keep doing what they are doing under the radar and conservative members will use this as a club to try to police behavior and judge others: "Aha, I was right when I told my millennial coworker that drinking green tea was against the WOW!"

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Katzpur
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Re: Are we the church of the WoW?

Post by Katzpur » 28 Aug 2019, 15:13

Rumin8, I strongly share your feelings on the Word of Wisdom. While I do understand it's value as "a word of wisdom," it bugs me to no end that despite the fact that the Lord gave this revelation to Joseph Smith, "NOT as a commandment," the institutional Church has decided somewhere along the way that it should not only be considered one, but should be considered such an important one as to supposedly affect our eternal destiny. Logic tells me that's just plain nuts.

I do hold a temple recommend, even though I have a drink of wine two or three times a year. (For years and years, I just gave myself permission to do so on Thanksgiving and Christmas. This past Mother's Day, though, I had one, too.) Other than that, I do keep the Word of Wisdom. Even though I start stressing out every two years right before I go in for a Temple Recommend interview, I say that I keep the Word of Wisdom because I feel that I keep it the way the Lord intended that I keep it when He revealed it to Joseph Smith. I'm probably just trying to justify my own shortcomings, but I'm willing to take the consequences for that action.

I feel that far too much emphasis is placed on this non-commandment. A "good Mormon" can do so many things of which I believe the Savior would disapprove but he can't have an occasional cup of coffee or a glass of ice tea or a few swallows of wine. I suspect it's partly because this is a law that is so easily measurable -- unless, of course, we were denied a Temple Recommend for eating meat more often than whatever qualifies as "sparingly." If the point is to keep our bodies healthy, then all of the grossly obese people I see in the temple wouldn't be there. Of course, I've heard that it's more about obedience than about the specifics of the law. That's just not how I believe God works. I mean, let's take coffee and tea. The Church has clarified in recent years that caffeine is not against the Word of Wisdom, but that coffee and tea are. So why are they? I would very much like somebody to give me a reason why I can drink Diet Coke to my heart's content but not have a cup of coffee ever! (By the way, coffee isn't an issue for me; I absolutely detest it.) "The Lord said so" simply doesn't cut it for me, particularly when we have absolutely no recorded revelation whatsoever telling us that it was His decision to change it from a suggestion to a commandment.
"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. If you try it, you will be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." ~Rudyard Kipling ~

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felixfabulous
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Re: Are we the church of the WoW?

Post by felixfabulous » 29 Aug 2019, 10:04

Katzpur, I wholeheartedly agree on all counts. I love this quote by Richard Rohr and think it is very applicable to the hard line we've taken on this issue:

“If change and growth are not programmed into your spirituality, if there are not serious warnings about the blinding nature of fear and fanaticism, your religion will always end up worshiping the status quo and protecting your present ego position and personal advantage as if it were God.”

We are trying to hold a firm line in the sand that was put there 100 years ago by leaders who were trying to rally us around the prohibition movement and assimilate us into white Protestant America. I agree that it does not make sense to try to justify this by saying it's the will of the Lord, when he told us pretty explicitly that it was not a commandment.

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