New Video Format of Temple Endowment

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Curt Sunshine
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Re: New Video Format of Temple Endowment

Post by Curt Sunshine » 23 Oct 2019, 15:07

Loss of privilege often feels like persecution.

I don't know if he felt he was being attacked, but that is a common reaction to every push for equality throughout history.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

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Re: New Video Format of Temple Endowment

Post by SamBee » 23 Oct 2019, 16:38

I'm not a fan of it. What gets me, apart from most of the beautiful nature footage being gone, is that people have short memories. Other people in the ward keep saying how short it is, but I have to point out to them that the endowment was much shorter ten years ago (these are no spring chickens so they were around back then). I met someone who did six of the old ones in one day (the video dated from the nineties). It got longer a few years ago and then was shortened again but is still longer than the nineties one.
DASH1730 "An Area Authority...[was] asked...who...would go to the Telestial kingdom. His answer: "murderers, adulterers and a lot of surprised Mormons!"'
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Re: New Video Format of Temple Endowment

Post by Roy » 23 Oct 2019, 16:59

Curt Sunshine wrote:
23 Oct 2019, 15:07
Loss of privilege often feels like persecution.

I don't know if he felt he was being attacked, but that is a common reaction to every push for equality throughout history.
"I'm not prejudiced, but by golly a white male in this country has very few rights, and they're getting took more every day."
The above quote was in the news yesterday and today. It was made by a local official in Tennessee that had disparaging things to say about the current crop of democratic presidential candidates. I only point to it as an example of what Curt describes.
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Re: New Video Format of Temple Endowment

Post by SamBee » 24 Oct 2019, 03:10

Curt Sunshine wrote:
23 Oct 2019, 15:07
Loss of privilege often feels like persecution.

I don't know if he felt he was being attacked, but that is a common reaction to every push for equality throughout history.
This is why a lot of American identity politics is a bankrupt ideology. It thinks without a trace of irony that the low paid white guy who mows the lawn in the park is more "privileged" than Oprah Winfrey who is one of the richest people in America.

Do you honestly think that guy complaining is more "privileged" in the LDS than Sheri Dew? I know who has the balance of power and it's not the guy you claim is privileged. If women don't have to veil up, how does that affect the privilege of men in the room? Not much. It does something for the women but not the men. We know women get a bad deal in the LDS, but there are also women in it who are much more powerful than the bulk of the men. A couple of words and Sheri Dew could get many policies changed since she has unfettered access to the president of the church.

If you believe that the white guy mowing the lawn is more privileged than Oprah you will believe anything. That is a right wing idea posing as a left wing one. Plenty of countries have had female leaders who were just as bloodthirsty as their male counterparts. Just moving the pieces around like the American idea suggests doesn't change things the way you think. We could have a church led by women, and then we could be in the same boat as Christian Science once which was led by a female.

The real privilege is money, access to education, connections to move up the tree (Oprah's route) etc. But since this idea comes from an élite who could get themselves into the most privileged colleges and universities in the land, and strangely enough social class is conspicuous by its absence in all of these debates.

If you want "equality" as you put it. Don't allow someone from the Ivy League (of whatever gender or skin color) to fool you that they are more oppressed than you. Nor let any multimillionaire or billionaire of any background, who may have inherited their money like Jayden Smith, tell you that they are more oppressed than a homeless man or someone who is laid off at the local steel plant.

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Re: New Video Format of Temple Endowment

Post by DarkJedi » 24 Oct 2019, 05:19

SamBee wrote:
24 Oct 2019, 03:10
Curt Sunshine wrote:
23 Oct 2019, 15:07
Loss of privilege often feels like persecution.

I don't know if he felt he was being attacked, but that is a common reaction to every push for equality throughout history.
This is why a lot of American identity politics is a bankrupt ideology. It thinks without a trace of irony that the low paid white guy who mows the lawn in the park is more "privileged" than Oprah Winfrey who is one of the richest people in America.

Do you honestly think that guy complaining is more "privileged" in the LDS than Sheri Dew? I know who has the balance of power and it's not the guy you claim is privileged. If women don't have to veil up, how does that affect the privilege of men in the room? Not much. It does something for the women but not the men. We know women get a bad deal in the LDS, but there are also women in it who are much more powerful than the bulk of the men. A couple of words and Sheri Dew could get many policies changed since she has unfettered access to the president of the church.

If you believe that the white guy mowing the lawn is more privileged than Oprah you will believe anything. That is a right wing idea posing as a left wing one. Plenty of countries have had female leaders who were just as bloodthirsty as their male counterparts. Just moving the pieces around like the American idea suggests doesn't change things the way you think. We could have a church led by women, and then we could be in the same boat as Christian Science once which was led by a female.

The real privilege is money, access to education, connections to move up the tree (Oprah's route) etc. But since this idea comes from an élite who could get themselves into the most privileged colleges and universities in the land, and strangely enough social class is conspicuous by its absence in all of these debates.

If you want "equality" as you put it. Don't allow someone from the Ivy League (of whatever gender or skin color) to fool you that they are more oppressed than you. Nor let any multimillionaire or billionaire of any background, who may have inherited their money like Jayden Smith, tell you that they are more oppressed than a homeless man or someone who is laid off at the local steel plant.
If the complaint is that the woman no longer has to swear (covenant) allegiance to her husband and the man's point of view is that he is more privileged before God because he holds the priesthood (and I know people who believe that to be doctrine) then maybe privilege isn't the right word - or maybe it is. Wealth is unquestionably privilege, but wealth is not the only thing that can bring privilege. And while money and power often go hand-in-hand there are powerful people within smaller groups, even those with no money.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

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nibbler
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Re: New Video Format of Temple Endowment

Post by nibbler » 24 Oct 2019, 07:53

The temple president could have responded with:
Doctrine and Covenants 121:36-37 wrote:That the rights of the priesthood are inseparably connected with the powers of heaven, and that the powers of heaven cannot be controlled nor handled only upon the principles of righteousness.

That they may be conferred upon us, it is true; but when we undertake to cover our sins, or to gratify our pride, our vain ambition, or to exercise control or dominion or compulsion upon the souls of the children of men, in any degree of unrighteousness, behold, the heavens withdraw themselves; the Spirit of the Lord is grieved; and when it is withdrawn, Amen to the priesthood or the authority of that man.
That said, I don't know the person's real issue. It could have been a machismo thing or it could have been related to something else entirely. For example, the man could have had an extremely deep belief that ordinances cannot change, not one iota, and it was a case where he recognized an ordinance being changed.
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Re: New Video Format of Temple Endowment

Post by Curt Sunshine » 24 Oct 2019, 10:12

"Privilege" is not an individual issue. It is a systemic issue. Throughout history, it has been a serious issue.

Almost nobody believes a poor white man in America has more power than a rich black woman. That isn't the issue here at all. The issue is a man who used to have an advantaged position (and in the endowment, men did have an advantaged position) losing his advantage (his privilege based solely on his maleness) and being upset that his wife (who previously had been presented as inferior due solely to her femaleness) now was presented as his equal (or more so than in the past). He lost his former privileged status, and it felt to him like he was losing a "right" when it actually was losing his former privilege.

Also, just to say it, in America, generally speaking, a typical poor white man or woman still has less of a chance of being profiled in a negative way than a rich black man or woman, especially if the rich black man or woman is not known to people observing him or her. For example, a young white man walked into a Walmart in the South fairly recently in full body armor and holding a semi-automatic rifle - immediately after a mass shooting at a Walmart. He said when the police arrived that he was testing his 2nd Amendment right to bear arms. I doubt a single black man in America would have considered such an action, much less done it. They would know the likelihood of being killed was nearly 100%, while the likelihood of that white man being killed was much lower (and didn't happen). If the white man lost his ability to act in that way, he might see it as persecution, being attacked, or losing a right - but the black man would see it only as equality. That is simply a fact of life still in America, and it is a manifestation of privilege.

I don't want to turn this into a debate about privilege, but it is important to understand what it means in relation to a man being upset about women being treated more equally in the temple. It has nothing to do with the individuals and everything to do with the systemic treatment of groups.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

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Re: New Video Format of Temple Endowment

Post by DarkJedi » 24 Oct 2019, 11:40

To piggyback on what Curt said in the preceding post, the man's perceived temple privilege was only that - perceived. Many people recognized before that change that the wording was unequal while the actual doctrine seemed to indicate we're all equal before God, male or female, bond or free, etc. This change in wording aligns with doctrine. This infers that I am saying that the temple ceremonies prior to the change taught false doctrine, and if that's true it is what it is (or was what it was). I could also infer that perhaps the complaining individual was not around for prior changes in the ceremony, because they were also thought to be doctrine by most. Some people thought (and some still think) we're not allowed to talk about anything that happens in the temple - but that is not doctrine nor is it doctrine that the temple ceremonies can't change.

Just a side note: if you are wondering what can be talked about outside the temple and what you can't talk about I think the church website is very valuable. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/tem ... t?lang=eng There are other links there as well.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

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Re: New Video Format of Temple Endowment

Post by Holy Cow » 24 Oct 2019, 16:52

nibbler wrote:
24 Oct 2019, 07:53
That said, I don't know the person's real issue. It could have been a machismo thing or it could have been related to something else entirely. For example, the man could have had an extremely deep belief that ordinances cannot change, not one iota, and it was a case where he recognized an ordinance being changed.
Unfortunately, the machismo had a lot to do with his complaints. My brother-in-law is an extremist when it comes to church stuff. He's the young men's president and his wife is a primary teacher, and he claims that he has a calling with more responsibility because he is living a 'more worthy' life, and unfortunately he sincerely believes that. If his wife or kids leave anything out of place, he yells at them because he claims the home should be just like the temple, and you never see anything out of place in the temple (he doesn't see the irony that his yelling and bullying creates a hostile environment which is the opposite of what it should be in the temple). He sincerely believes that as the patriarch of the family, EVERY decision requires his input and approval. His wife can't spend a dollar without his consent. And, he believes this is the true order of how things should be. So, he was irate that his wife no longer has to promise to 'hearken' directly to him, because he believes that a wife's relationship to God has to go through the husband. It's a sad thing to see, but it sounds like nobody else has come across anybody else that has had such a negative reaction to the changes, so I'm glad this is an isolated case.
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Re: New Video Format of Temple Endowment

Post by Curt Sunshine » 24 Oct 2019, 17:26

Your poor sister and her kids. I am so sorry to know they have to go through that - and that it might rub off on any boys they might have.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

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