Irksome Approach to Chapel Cleaning

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SilentDawning
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Re: Irksome Approach to Chapel Cleaning

Post by SilentDawning » 03 Jun 2019, 19:26

Roy wrote:
02 Jun 2019, 16:11
As someone who does not pay tithing, I find it extra important to find ways to contribute to the church that I feel are personally sustainable. I currently do most of that by holding a calling with the cub scout program, feeding the missionaries, and helping with the occasional EQ move. I could personally justify cleaning the church building under the same reasoning.
This makes sense from the perspective of someone who has had your life experiences.

I feel let down by the church in so many ways -- so many IMPORTANT ways - in my lifetime. To the point I feel very little loyalty on just about any count. I don't like to besmirch the church to others outside our faith, or to traditional believers, but I don't feel I have to do anything because I owe something for not being a full tithe-payer.

But that isn't to disagree with anyone else who feels that lack of tithing means contributions should be made in other ways to partly make up for it.
"It doesn't have to be about the Church (church) all the time!" -- SD

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."

A man asked Jesus "do all roads lead to you?" Jesus responds,”most roads don’t lead anywhere, but I will travel any road to find you.” Adapted from The Shack, William Young

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DarkJedi
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Re: Irksome Approach to Chapel Cleaning

Post by DarkJedi » 04 Jun 2019, 05:29

BJE wrote:
02 Jun 2019, 23:14
I had to miss my cleaning assignment this past Saturday because I had to work. The person in charge today did not want to let me off the hook and wanted me to do it next Saturday but again I have to work. The Saturday after that I’ll be out of town on vacation then the Saturday after that I have a Taekwondo tournament to go to. Then our quarter for cleaning is over. Assigning people do do something against their schedule is not a good workable solution to building cleaning.
I think that's why we don't have a set time to show up and all do it together. Again, I don't participate, but I think those who do often do it Tuesday during Mutual - but that's not a rule/schedule and I know someone who does it early Saturday morning (the least likely time I would do it). I think the people who do it Tuesday just do it out of convenience, their kids are there and they drove there anyway, the building is unlocked, etc. (Most members in my ward live at least a few miles, and up to 20 or so miles, from the meeting house. I live 10 miles away).

Just to throw this out there, and I know not everybody agrees with this or thinks this way, but I do believe that people receiving church assistance (there are several long term ones in my ward) should be assigned weekly if they are physically able. I'm more willing to give the ones who hold a calling and contribute in other ways a pass, but some of the several in my ward haven't even come to church in years. One of them comes every month - the first Sunday to meet with the bishop and give him the bills to pay. Otherwise they are unseen and unheard from.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

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SilentDawning
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Re: Irksome Approach to Chapel Cleaning

Post by SilentDawning » 04 Jun 2019, 07:43

DarkJedi wrote:
04 Jun 2019, 05:29
Just to throw this out there, and I know not everybody agrees with this or thinks this way, but I do believe that people receiving church assistance (there are several long term ones in my ward) should be assigned weekly if they are physically able. I'm more willing to give the ones who hold a calling and contribute in other ways a pass, but some of the several in my ward haven't even come to church in years. One of them comes every month - the first Sunday to meet with the bishop and give him the bills to pay. Otherwise they are unseen and unheard from.
This is one reason I like Dave Ramsay's Financial Peace University program. He works from a Christian perspective. He advocates first building a reserve for unemployment or calamity. Note his plan below:

Baby Step 1 – $1,000 to start an Emergency Fund
Baby Step 2 – Pay off all debt using the Debt Snowball
Baby Step 3 – 3 to 6 months of expenses in savings
Baby Step 4 – Invest 15% of household income into Roth IRAs and pre-tax retirement
Baby Step 5 – College funding for children
Baby Step 6 – Pay off home early
Baby Step 7 – Build wealth and give!

Notice how aggressive giving occurs after you get your fiscal house in order. It's in Baby Step 7. So if you do run into financial trouble, you are TRULY SELF-RELIANT. So that means you aren't dependent on the church for rent, food and groceries, and utilities, while also obligated to clean the chapel.

It's always bothered me how the church teaches self-reliance, but only after you pay the church tithing. If paying tithing puts you in a deficit position, requiring church assistance, from a church perspective that's OK. Very self-centered. Further, it puts the church in a position not to be accountable in any way to its members. And history has shown, the leaders at the top appear to NEED such accountability.

It's one reason I guess I'm at peace with not having a TR, not having status, not being fully invested in the church mission.

Now, if you have people who simply won't do what is necessary to put themselves in a better position, then perhaps Chapel cleaning is in order. We had one person who would take training courses to get him out of the low paid labor market, but he would refuse to take the final exam, or finish the courses. Why would someone do that? Because he didn't want to do the work after he completed the program. That is the only reason I could think of. Someone like that who has no interest in getting self-reliant, and looks to others for support should probably be required to do work for their assistance.

Someone who paid tithing all their lives and then runs into a rough spot (partly because they gave away their reserve to the church over the years) should get a break.

I have tried to rely on the church for non-financial needs I've had (adoption, emotional support for a mission, counseling) and there are never resources available. So I would be VERY reluctant to ever rely on them again.
"It doesn't have to be about the Church (church) all the time!" -- SD

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."

A man asked Jesus "do all roads lead to you?" Jesus responds,”most roads don’t lead anywhere, but I will travel any road to find you.” Adapted from The Shack, William Young

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DarkJedi
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Re: Irksome Approach to Chapel Cleaning

Post by DarkJedi » 04 Jun 2019, 07:59

I like Ramsey as well. It's not the only way, but it does work.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

My Introduction

BJE
Posts: 36
Joined: 24 May 2019, 13:02

Re: Irksome Approach to Chapel Cleaning

Post by BJE » 04 Jun 2019, 10:14

DarkJedi wrote:
04 Jun 2019, 05:29
BJE wrote:
02 Jun 2019, 23:14
I had to miss my cleaning assignment this past Saturday because I had to work. The person in charge today did not want to let me off the hook and wanted me to do it next Saturday but again I have to work. The Saturday after that I’ll be out of town on vacation then the Saturday after that I have a Taekwondo tournament to go to. Then our quarter for cleaning is over. Assigning people do do something against their schedule is not a good workable solution to building cleaning.
I think that's why we don't have a set time to show up and all do it together. Again, I don't participate, but I think those who do often do it Tuesday during Mutual - but that's not a rule/schedule and I know someone who does it early Saturday morning (the least likely time I would do it). I think the people who do it Tuesday just do it out of convenience, their kids are there and they drove there anyway, the building is unlocked, etc. (Most members in my ward live at least a few miles, and up to 20 or so miles, from the meeting house. I live 10 miles away).

Just to throw this out there, and I know not everybody agrees with this or thinks this way, but I do believe that people receiving church assistance (there are several long term ones in my ward) should be assigned weekly if they are physically able. I'm more willing to give the ones who hold a calling and contribute in other ways a pass, but some of the several in my ward haven't even come to church in years. One of them comes every month - the first Sunday to meet with the bishop and give him the bills to pay. Otherwise they are unseen and unheard from.
In my ward it’s always 8:00 Saturday morning. Also, my ward boundaries are about 1 mile by 2 miles. I live a mile and a half from the church. Our whole stake is only about 6 miles by 5 miles and it’s rural not city.

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DarkJedi
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Re: Irksome Approach to Chapel Cleaning

Post by DarkJedi » 04 Jun 2019, 11:23

BJE wrote:
04 Jun 2019, 10:14
DarkJedi wrote:
04 Jun 2019, 05:29
BJE wrote:
02 Jun 2019, 23:14
I had to miss my cleaning assignment this past Saturday because I had to work. The person in charge today did not want to let me off the hook and wanted me to do it next Saturday but again I have to work. The Saturday after that I’ll be out of town on vacation then the Saturday after that I have a Taekwondo tournament to go to. Then our quarter for cleaning is over. Assigning people do do something against their schedule is not a good workable solution to building cleaning.
I think that's why we don't have a set time to show up and all do it together. Again, I don't participate, but I think those who do often do it Tuesday during Mutual - but that's not a rule/schedule and I know someone who does it early Saturday morning (the least likely time I would do it). I think the people who do it Tuesday just do it out of convenience, their kids are there and they drove there anyway, the building is unlocked, etc. (Most members in my ward live at least a few miles, and up to 20 or so miles, from the meeting house. I live 10 miles away).

Just to throw this out there, and I know not everybody agrees with this or thinks this way, but I do believe that people receiving church assistance (there are several long term ones in my ward) should be assigned weekly if they are physically able. I'm more willing to give the ones who hold a calling and contribute in other ways a pass, but some of the several in my ward haven't even come to church in years. One of them comes every month - the first Sunday to meet with the bishop and give him the bills to pay. Otherwise they are unseen and unheard from.
In my ward it’s always 8:00 Saturday morning. Also, my ward boundaries are about 1 mile by 2 miles. I live a mile and a half from the church. Our whole stake is only about 6 miles by 5 miles and it’s rural not city.
"Benefits" of living in the rural Northeast US. It's about an hour and a half drive between the furthest east branch and furthest west branch in my stake. Those two are sort of bookends to a southern tier of units, with three wards in between. Mine is the center one (the only ward that meets in the stake center, all but one of our buildings is single unit). For me it's about 45 minutes to those two branches, but to the farthest north one it's about 1:15 and I go through one other ward to get there. The branch president of that branch is 1:30 away from the stake center because he lives on the far north end of the stake, and some of the people in the eastern branch are also over an hour away. Fifteen years ago there were two new stakes created, one south and one northeast of us. Prior to that we had units that were two hours away with members 2:30.

I would absolutely not show up at 8 am Saturday - it just wouldn't happen. It's not my work schedule, I work M-F. Saturday morning is when I catch up on my sleep and relax a bit before doing the stuff I usually have to do at my house. It's the one day have to have a leisurely morning, eat a real breakfast, etc. It is my time.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

My Introduction

BJE
Posts: 36
Joined: 24 May 2019, 13:02

Re: Irksome Approach to Chapel Cleaning

Post by BJE » 04 Jun 2019, 19:32

DarkJedi wrote:
04 Jun 2019, 11:23
BJE wrote:
04 Jun 2019, 10:14
DarkJedi wrote:
04 Jun 2019, 05:29


I think that's why we don't have a set time to show up and all do it together. Again, I don't participate, but I think those who do often do it Tuesday during Mutual - but that's not a rule/schedule and I know someone who does it early Saturday morning (the least likely time I would do it). I think the people who do it Tuesday just do it out of convenience, their kids are there and they drove there anyway, the building is unlocked, etc. (Most members in my ward live at least a few miles, and up to 20 or so miles, from the meeting house. I live 10 miles away).

Just to throw this out there, and I know not everybody agrees with this or thinks this way, but I do believe that people receiving church assistance (there are several long term ones in my ward) should be assigned weekly if they are physically able. I'm more willing to give the ones who hold a calling and contribute in other ways a pass, but some of the several in my ward haven't even come to church in years. One of them comes every month - the first Sunday to meet with the bishop and give him the bills to pay. Otherwise they are unseen and unheard from.
In my ward it’s always 8:00 Saturday morning. Also, my ward boundaries are about 1 mile by 2 miles. I live a mile and a half from the church. Our whole stake is only about 6 miles by 5 miles and it’s rural not city.
"Benefits" of living in the rural Northeast US. It's about an hour and a half drive between the furthest east branch and furthest west branch in my stake. Those two are sort of bookends to a southern tier of units, with three wards in between. Mine is the center one (the only ward that meets in the stake center, all but one of our buildings is single unit). For me it's about 45 minutes to those two branches, but to the farthest north one it's about 1:15 and I go through one other ward to get there. The branch president of that branch is 1:30 away from the stake center because he lives on the far north end of the stake, and some of the people in the eastern branch are also over an hour away. Fifteen years ago there were two new stakes created, one south and one northeast of us. Prior to that we had units that were two hours away with members 2:30.

I would absolutely not show up at 8 am Saturday - it just wouldn't happen. It's not my work schedule, I work M-F. Saturday morning is when I catch up on my sleep and relax a bit before doing the stuff I usually have to do at my house. It's the one day have to have a leisurely morning, eat a real breakfast, etc. It is my time.
In the “Mormon corridor” where I live there is an LDS church on every corner so to speak. Two to three wards in a building too.

My brother lives in Rexburg, Idaho, home of BYU-Idaho, he said that in his ward boundaries there are three non member households.

Curt Sunshine
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Re: Irksome Approach to Chapel Cleaning

Post by Curt Sunshine » 04 Jun 2019, 21:06

Cleaning is something innocuous and easy I can do to build some social capital. However, if I can't do it at a given time, I can't do it. No guilt. I can't do what I can't do - and I won't feel guilty about not being able to do what I'm not able to do.

Also, I don't like the assignment model, in theory, but, in practice, it is the only approach that has any chance of working most of the time.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

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