More than enough

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SilentDawning
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Re: More than enough

Post by SilentDawning » 12 May 2019, 06:46

Gerald wrote:
12 May 2019, 05:47
The church is actually a typical charity. If most people knew how major charities were run then they would not give to them.
One can dream, right?
Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people living for today

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no XXXXXX too

Imagine all the people living life in peace, you
You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope some day you'll join us
And the world will be as one....
"It doesn't have to be about the Church (church) all the time!" -- SD

"Stage 5 is where you no longer believe the gospel as its literally or traditionally taught. Nonetheless, you find your own way to be active and at peace within it". -- SD

The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."

My introduction: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1576

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dande48
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Location: Wherever there is danger

Re: More than enough

Post by dande48 » 12 May 2019, 08:32

SilentDawning wrote:
12 May 2019, 06:43
They were talking about making one bay a mechanical shop where the members can come and have other members repair their cars.
I'd be absolutely estatic if the Church were to do this!!! Having the right tools and a good garage, can save you thousands of dollars in repairs. And since the poorer among us usually drive beaters and can't afford to pay that kind of price, it'd be a major community service.
"The whole world is a comedy to those that think, a tragedy to those that feel." - Horace Walpole

"Even though there are no ways of knowing for sure, there are ways of knowing for pretty sure."
-Lemony Snicket

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SilentDawning
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Re: More than enough

Post by SilentDawning » 12 May 2019, 09:17

dande48 wrote:
12 May 2019, 08:32
SilentDawning wrote:
12 May 2019, 06:43
They were talking about making one bay a mechanical shop where the members can come and have other members repair their cars.
I'd be absolutely ecstatic if the Church were to do this!!! Having the right tools and a good garage can save you thousands of dollars in repairs. And since the poorer among us usually drive beaters and can't afford to pay that kind of price, it'd be a major community service.
I have mixed feelings about it. There are smaller mechanic shops (the kind where you have to wait 3 days to get your car fixed) that are not that expensive. Such a shop takes away from that business, and these guys are actually shining examples of good business in an industry that is often more expensive than the average person can afford.

Also, when does service become simply free labor? I see it as a great thing for the poor...but it could quickly become like moving in our church. Expected, a drag, and not even really in line with our mission. I think simply funding or subsidizing an existing repair shop might make the dollars go further. Creating some kind of educational program for brake work, oil changing, alternator switchouts, wiring kit replacements, headlights, battery changes, tune ups etcetera is a good idea. This is so people can do these things on their own. That would be in harmony with a self-reliance mission idea...
"It doesn't have to be about the Church (church) all the time!" -- SD

"Stage 5 is where you no longer believe the gospel as its literally or traditionally taught. Nonetheless, you find your own way to be active and at peace within it". -- SD

The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."

My introduction: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1576

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dande48
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Location: Wherever there is danger

Re: More than enough

Post by dande48 » 12 May 2019, 10:06

SilentDawning wrote:
12 May 2019, 09:17
Also, when does service become simply free labor? I see it as a great thing for the poor...but it could quickly become like moving in our church.
I'd say "whenever the Church is involved". ButI was talking about the individual fixing their own car, using the Church's garage. It's not "free labor" if you're doing it yourself. All you would need is a facilities manager... who the tithes can pay, but honestly would require less work than quite a few unpaid callings. Auto work isn't hard, by any stretch, so long as you have access to the right tools... and access to youtube. :lol:

As for the smaller mechanic shops, if they haven't been bought out, I think it's more the rich who would use them than the poor. Most of the poor generally only have one car, and work hourly jobs with no vacation. Not that they could afford to take a vacation anyways. Missing work for a couple of days usually means getting fire, and if not, even a 100% free job that takes a few days would cost them far more than they could afford.

As for myself, I pay someone to change my oil and rotate the tires, not because I can't do it or haven't done it plenty of times before... I just don't want to deal with the time or hassle, and make enough to afford it. I can afford to be without a car, partly because I can telecommute whenever I feel like, and partly because I have a second. I would take it to one of those small mechanic shops, because I'm cheap and trust them more. As long as a Church garage doesn't lead to a wealthy person (like me) dropping off their car and expecting someone else to take care of it, I'd be fine. If you expect help, you better be working just as hard any anyone else.
"The whole world is a comedy to those that think, a tragedy to those that feel." - Horace Walpole

"Even though there are no ways of knowing for sure, there are ways of knowing for pretty sure."
-Lemony Snicket

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Cadence
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Re: More than enough

Post by Cadence » 12 May 2019, 10:58

Curt Sunshine wrote:
However the church does not exercise faith. If they did they would distribute every dollar by year end and have faith the lord would provide for the future.


That isn't faith. That is stupidity. No individual or organization should operate that way. It is a surefire recipe for disaster - and the Church doesn't encourage that approach from members, either. They encourage saving and setting aside funds (and food), whenever possible, for difficult times.

Demanding extremes isn't healthy - by the Church of us or by us of the Church.
I don’t disagree no organization would survive giving everything away. I was just trying to make a point the church should not expect members to sacrifice at all costs and have faith but seemingly not doing the same.


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Faith, as well intentioned as it may be, must be built on facts, not fiction--faith in fiction is a damnable false hope. Thomas A. Edison

“The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.” Neil deGrasse Tyson

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SilentDawning
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Re: More than enough

Post by SilentDawning » 12 May 2019, 12:17

dande48 wrote:
12 May 2019, 10:06
SilentDawning wrote:
12 May 2019, 09:17
Also, when does service become simply free labor? I see it as a great thing for the poor...but it could quickly become like moving in our church.
I'd say "whenever the Church is involved".
For me, it's when individuals use church volunteer labor for things they could afford or do themselves. Service like the kind we're talking about is for people who have no other alternative in my view. Like you say, a wealthy or at least, self-reliant person dropping off their car for someone else to fix for free would be an example of free labor. A single parent with 3 kids living below the poverty line, or barely making it dropping it off -- for fixing -- would be an example of service.

But I was talking about the individual fixing their own car, using the Church's garage. It's not "free labor" if you're doing it yourself. All you would need is a facilities manager... who the tithes can pay, but honestly would require less work than quite a few unpaid callings. Auto work isn't hard, by any stretch, so long as you have access to the right tools... and access to youtube. :lol:
That would be empowering. There was a shop like that in Canada once and for some reason it was closed due to some kind of outside pressure. You paid by the hour to rent the shop and tools, and there were actually several bays.

For the church, the investment in tools would be significant depending on the scope of the work it would claim to be possible in the shop. And someone would have to staff it to make it accessible. Not sure if it would work...

Little story -- years ago my FIL was a branch president. He let me store a vehicle I wasn't using at his expansive property. We were newly married, my wife and I, and I have always been, and still am, an old-car driver. The car I stored there still worked, and could be driven immediately, but it was old and close to the end of its life.

I happened upon a newer vehicle that was in good shape, so I drove that one and kept the old one as backup for when I needed to look for another car, or our circumstances changed.

One of his flock had a financial problem and didn't have a car to get to work. He asked if they could drive mine. I asked for how long and he didn't have an answer. It sounded indefinite.

Sounds good on the surface, right? I said "No" for a few reasons. If they couldn't afford a car, and were in financial trouble, could they repair it if it broke down? What about insurance? Who would pay that (it had only comprehensive on it, no liability)? And what about wear and tear? The car was near the end of its life -- did I want to give away that life to someone when I could be in the same position they are in if my own main car broke down?

This was a case when service was going a bit far, in my view. Basically, a long-term free car rental. In the end the person made the right decision -- they moved out of the country house they were in, and moved into the city where they could take a bus.
"It doesn't have to be about the Church (church) all the time!" -- SD

"Stage 5 is where you no longer believe the gospel as its literally or traditionally taught. Nonetheless, you find your own way to be active and at peace within it". -- SD

The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."

My introduction: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1576

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