The Courage This Change Took

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SilentDawning
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Re: The Courage This Change Took

Post by SilentDawning » 05 Apr 2019, 18:30

hawkgrrrl wrote:
05 Apr 2019, 15:52
SD:
"the statement that the prophet would never lead us astray"
And so far, he hasn't! It's our leader worship that has led us astray. He can only lead us where we are willing to go, after all.
Interesting take HG, but I think the statement's original intent was to inspire confidence that the Prophets words will always be correct , and that no one would be led down the wrong path by following the prophet -- and I shall risk, and say, almost blindly following the prophet.

And yet, we have a priesthood ban that harmed millions...
"It doesn't have to be about the Church (church) all the time!" -- SD

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."

A man asked Jesus "do all roads lead to you?" Jesus responds,”most roads don’t lead anywhere, but I will travel any road to find you.” Adapted from The Shack, William Young

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SilentDawning
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Re: The Courage This Change Took

Post by SilentDawning » 05 Apr 2019, 18:32

DarkJedi wrote:
05 Apr 2019, 05:00
On Own Now wrote:
04 Apr 2019, 15:02
So, I was around and substantially impacted by the March 1982 Policy of 18 month missions for Elders. It was reverted in December, 1984, 2.75 years later; less time than it took to revise the Nov 15 policy (just under 3.5 years).

As far as I could tell, people took that in stride. It made sense to undo it. What I came away with from that affair was the idea that the Church could make and rescind policy and it was fine, and that every action wasn't the express command of God (which was healthy).
I heard the following argument in our local culture:

"At that period in time, they had a bunch of wayward spirits ready to go on missions and 1.5 years was the most they could handle."

I think the reason was akin to lowering the price of a product. Lower price increases demand. So, they thought if they made it 1.5 years, it would be less of a cost, more people would sign up, so we'd increase our missionary force. What they found was that most missionaries hit their peak baptisms in their last six months. So, just when missionaries were getting effective, they finished their missions, leaving all that potential unused.

I know that was true for me....I saw more people baptized in the last six months of my mission than I did the first eighteen months combined.
"It doesn't have to be about the Church (church) all the time!" -- SD

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."

A man asked Jesus "do all roads lead to you?" Jesus responds,”most roads don’t lead anywhere, but I will travel any road to find you.” Adapted from The Shack, William Young

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hawkgrrrl
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Re: The Courage This Change Took

Post by hawkgrrrl » 05 Apr 2019, 20:04

SD:
"What they found was that most missionaries hit their peak baptisms in their last six months. So, just when missionaries were getting effective, they finished their missions, leaving all that potential unused."
That makes it particularly galling that women only serve for 18 months rather than 24 like the men. I have often said men should serve 18 months so that it's equal, but my husband agrees with you that the last 6 months are when he really got a command of the language and figured out what he was doing. Of course, back then, women had a leg up with 3 years of college under our belts and a bit more maturity than the average 19 year old Elder. But it is frustrating as a woman to be constantly encouraged to do the easy things, then looked at as if we can't handle things.

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DarkJedi
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Re: The Courage This Change Took

Post by DarkJedi » 06 Apr 2019, 03:59

hawkgrrrl wrote:
05 Apr 2019, 20:04
SD: "What they found was that most missionaries hit their peak baptisms in their last six months. So, just when missionaries were getting effective, they finished their missions, leaving all that potential unused." That makes it particularly galling that women only serve for 18 months rather than 24 like the men. I have often said men should serve 18 months so that it's equal, but my husband agrees with you that the last 6 months are when he really got a command of the language and figured out what he was doing. Of course, back then, women had a leg up with 3 years of college under our belts and a bit more maturity than the average 19 year old Elder. But it is frustrating as a woman to be constantly encouraged to do the easy things, then looked at as if we can't handle things.
As an 18 month missionary who was out when it was changed back to 24 months (I had the choice to stay if I wanted, of course) I call bull on the last six month ...er...well, bull. I am galled by that as much as you are Hawk.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

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SilentDawning
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Re: The Courage This Change Took

Post by SilentDawning » 07 Apr 2019, 09:29

hawkgrrrl wrote:
05 Apr 2019, 20:04
SD: "What they found was that most missionaries hit their peak baptisms in their last six months. So, just when missionaries were getting effective, they finished their missions, leaving all that potential unused." That makes it particularly galling that women only serve for 18 months rather than 24 like the men. I have often said men should serve 18 months so that it's equal, but my husband agrees with you that the last 6 months are when he really got a command of the language and figured out what he was doing. Of course, back then, women had a leg up with 3 years of college under our belts and a bit more maturity than the average 19 year old Elder. But it is frustrating as a woman to be constantly encouraged to do the easy things, then looked at as if we can't handle things.
Would they let you extend a mission back then if you wanted? It was hard enough that I wouldn't have wanted to, I think, even if I was getting effective at 18 months, but I wonder if women were given the option to extend if they wanted? Still not a solution to the problem, but something I have wondered about.
"It doesn't have to be about the Church (church) all the time!" -- SD

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."

A man asked Jesus "do all roads lead to you?" Jesus responds,”most roads don’t lead anywhere, but I will travel any road to find you.” Adapted from The Shack, William Young

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SamBee
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Re: The Courage This Change Took

Post by SamBee » 07 Apr 2019, 12:02

dande48 wrote:
04 Apr 2019, 13:36
There will be cognitive dissonance because of this quick reversal. I have no doubt, shelves are going to break. And I doubt most of those who's shelves "broke" when the Nov 2015 policy came out, aren't coming back.
No cog dis for me, since I never accepted it. I agree with your second comment, but it will bring back some and also help retain those who are troubled by it.

I notice the endowment wording has been changed recently. Those who have been through recently will have noted the ref.

The most offensive part of the 2015 policy (was it really that long ago?!) for me was punishing people for things that they didn't do. In this case children, who may not even be biologically related to the parent concerned. The church can attack LGBT all it likes, but they excluded people by association. It was a very badly thought out policy.

Personally, I lay the blame partly at the feet of extreme gay rights orgs. Some of them deliberately targeted LDS chapels for vandalism, went in for sexualized displays in F&T services (heavy petting, tongue kissing etc) and a number of other things which alienated potential supporters in the church, and besmirched the reputation of LGBT members. I suspect if these campaigners hadn't done some of these things, then we may have seen progress earlier. Thank God for LDS LGBT orgs though they redress this balance.
DASH1730 "An Area Authority...[was] asked...who...would go to the Telestial kingdom. His answer: "murderers, adulterers and a lot of surprised Mormons!"'
1ST PRES 1978 "[LDS] believe...there is truth in many religions and philosophies...good and great religious leaders... have raised the spiritual, moral, and ethical awareness of their people. When we speak of The [LDS] as the only true church...it is...authorized to administer the ordinances...by Jesus Christ... we do not mean... it is the only teacher of truth."

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DarkJedi
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Re: The Courage This Change Took

Post by DarkJedi » 07 Apr 2019, 12:26

SilentDawning wrote:
07 Apr 2019, 09:29
hawkgrrrl wrote:
05 Apr 2019, 20:04
SD: "What they found was that most missionaries hit their peak baptisms in their last six months. So, just when missionaries were getting effective, they finished their missions, leaving all that potential unused." That makes it particularly galling that women only serve for 18 months rather than 24 like the men. I have often said men should serve 18 months so that it's equal, but my husband agrees with you that the last 6 months are when he really got a command of the language and figured out what he was doing. Of course, back then, women had a leg up with 3 years of college under our belts and a bit more maturity than the average 19 year old Elder. But it is frustrating as a woman to be constantly encouraged to do the easy things, then looked at as if we can't handle things.
Would they let you extend a mission back then if you wanted? It was hard enough that I wouldn't have wanted to, I think, even if I was getting effective at 18 months, but I wonder if women were given the option to extend if they wanted? Still not a solution to the problem, but something I have wondered about.
No, only males could extend and then only if they had more than a couple months of their 18 left. And yes, there was a good amount of judgement. I did not extend, my companion did.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

My Introduction

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Katzpur
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Re: The Courage This Change Took

Post by Katzpur » 07 Apr 2019, 15:17

mom3 wrote:
04 Apr 2019, 13:18
Of all the moves yet by RMN this one was the riskiest. I wish all of us well.
Although he genuinely frustrates me at times, I've got to applaud him (as well as the rest of them) for this. I can't help but wonder, though, who actually spearheaded the effort for change.
"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. If you try it, you will be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." ~Rudyard Kipling ~

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