The Courage This Change Took

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mom3
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The Courage This Change Took

Post by mom3 » 04 Apr 2019, 13:18

Right now all over Mormon America apoplexy is setting in. As one of our own stated,
How could these men think that the 2015 revelation was a good thing and inspired and now not? It did so much harm.
This is a painful question for the ages. I don't have answers. Nor do I dismiss those whose lives have been torn a second or third or millionth time.

But I also can not dismiss the courage it took to get this change to happen. And so quickly.

This would have been the last team of people I would have imagined that this would happen under. For all the rhetoric and stances they had taken - it was unthinkable that even a softening would happen. Let alone a shift.

My dad is their age, life has calcified for him. His right and wrongs are set. Nothing or no one changes them from him. The world has been a certain way for 90 years. It was a good world, safe world, a blessed world. It lived beyond the horrors of war. The years of severe depression and fear. For my dad to assimilate the possibility of an about face would take an act of God. I am not joking.

Millions of lives have worked tirelessly on behalf of the hurting and marginalized to get this to happen. There was no guarantee.

I pray acres of joy are over those who have wearied God, wearied leaders, wearied friends and family to get here.

I also pray for acres of insight, understanding and abundant joy on these men who took the full risk of losing many more souls than had already been lost and courageously, publicly u-turned.

Of all the moves yet by RMN this one was the riskiest. I wish all of us well.
"I stayed because it was God and Jesus Christ that I wanted to follow and be like, not individual human beings." Chieko Okazaki Dialogue interview

"I am coming to envision a new persona for the Church as humble followers of Jesus Christ....Joseph and his early followers came forth with lots of triumphalist rhetoric, but I think we need a new voice, one of humility, friendship and service. We should teach people to believe in God because it will soften their hearts and make them more willing to serve." - Richard Bushman

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dande48
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Re: The Courage This Change Took

Post by dande48 » 04 Apr 2019, 13:36

There will be cognitive dissonance because of this quick reversal. I have no doubt, shelves are going to break. And I doubt most of those who's shelves "broke" when the Nov 2015 policy came out, aren't coming back.

The usual LDS reaction when faced with adversity is to double down, which makes me surprised the Q15 didn't with this policy. That took a lot of gut. In a way, they didn't disavow the past revelation, just had a new revelation that superseded it. The Church has made it very clear, God doesn't cave to social pressure, so for whatever reason it was right then but not now. It's a tough message to swallow.

In the future, I hope the Church is a little more careful with what they declare as "revelation". Most members would do well, to do the same.
"The whole world is a comedy to those that think, a tragedy to those that feel." - Horace Walpole

"Even though there are no ways of knowing for sure, there are ways of knowing for pretty sure."
-Lemony Snicket

Curt Sunshine
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Re: The Courage This Change Took

Post by Curt Sunshine » 04 Apr 2019, 13:45

I agree, mom3.

I have mentioned seeing signs of change even before the change train came rumbling down the track, but this one blind-sided me - and I honor what it took to do it, no matter what that was.

Right now, I care only that it changed - and I honor both those who spoke out and those who listened.

I also want to add that we don't hear about the input from the newer apostles - and I believe their voices were important.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

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hawkgrrrl
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Re: The Courage This Change Took

Post by hawkgrrrl » 04 Apr 2019, 14:29

There's so much to give encouragement here. It seems that reason prevailed over a very strong stance, and that RMN is willing to rescind something everyone knows was his doing (except those members who stay off line or don't look too closely). They haven't exactly apologized and nothing will bring back the people who were lost. But the real shelf-breaker here is for those who believed church leaders are infallible and that "revelation" is reliable. Only the dumbest of the dumb will be able to hold on to that incredibly naive idea in the wake of this. And they will. But they will be a minority.

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dande48
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Re: The Courage This Change Took

Post by dande48 » 04 Apr 2019, 14:50

hawkgrrrl wrote:
04 Apr 2019, 14:29
But the real shelf-breaker here is for those who believed church leaders are infallible and that "revelation" is reliable. Only the dumbest of the dumb will be able to hold on to that incredibly naive idea in the wake of this. And they will. But they will be a minority.
FWIW, isn't that what the Church is *still* claiming? Or at least that the "revelation" Church leaders claim is infallible? Last I checked, the Nov 15 policy is still considered revelation. Not to mention, prophetic revelation is the bedrock of this Church. I also wouldn't call them "dumb". It takes a LOT to shift a paradigm, especially when your whole life is built on it.
"The whole world is a comedy to those that think, a tragedy to those that feel." - Horace Walpole

"Even though there are no ways of knowing for sure, there are ways of knowing for pretty sure."
-Lemony Snicket

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hawkgrrrl
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Re: The Courage This Change Took

Post by hawkgrrrl » 04 Apr 2019, 14:58

"prophetic revelation is the bedrock of this Church."
Is it? I thought it was just revelation, something all of us have access to. This calls into question the reliability of such.
"I also wouldn't call them "dumb". It takes a LOT to shift a paradigm, especially when your whole life is built on it."
Maybe a better word is irrational. We are all irrational, after all, as humans. But it's got to take some spectacular mental gymnastics to go from defending the PoX (and attacking those who didn't buy it was revelation) to defending it being rescinded (and attacking those who say it never should have existed). But there's a subset of church members who will do just that.

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On Own Now
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Re: The Courage This Change Took

Post by On Own Now » 04 Apr 2019, 15:02

So, I was around and substantially impacted by the March 1982 Policy of 18 month missions for Elders. It was reverted in December, 1984, 2.75 years later; less time than it took to revise the Nov 15 policy (just under 3.5 years).

As far as I could tell, people took that in stride. It made sense to undo it. What I came away with from that affair was the idea that the Church could make and rescind policy and it was fine, and that every action wasn't the express command of God (which was healthy).
"Let us therefore no longer pass judgment on one another, but resolve instead never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of another." --Romans 14:13

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mom3
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Re: The Courage This Change Took

Post by mom3 » 04 Apr 2019, 15:08

As far as I could tell, people took that in stride. It made sense to undo it. What I came away with from that affair was the idea that the Church could make and rescind policy and it was fine, and that every action wasn't the express command of God (which was healthy).
Perhaps.

To me this one is stickier based on RMN's Hawaii Fireside where he specifically used "revelation" as the guiding force. I believe even comparing it to the 1978 Priesthood Revelation. If he had not gone out on that limb it would feel more like a policy, as Elder Christofferson presented it at the press conference.

And if my memory was correct, in my area the 18 month change was presented as a financial and economic need, more than a policy or doctrine. As it continued to roll on, and then roll back it took on a cultural life of "God's Divine Plan" or "More Worthy" "Less Worthy" issue. And yes we did make it through with less bumps. Part of that was because we weren't singling out one group or another. All missionaries got the same treatment. This one was group specific.
"I stayed because it was God and Jesus Christ that I wanted to follow and be like, not individual human beings." Chieko Okazaki Dialogue interview

"I am coming to envision a new persona for the Church as humble followers of Jesus Christ....Joseph and his early followers came forth with lots of triumphalist rhetoric, but I think we need a new voice, one of humility, friendship and service. We should teach people to believe in God because it will soften their hearts and make them more willing to serve." - Richard Bushman

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On Own Now
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Re: The Courage This Change Took

Post by On Own Now » 04 Apr 2019, 15:43

Certainly, it is stickier. But my perspective is that the Nov 15 policy was not loved by hardly anyone. There was a lot of visible frustration, even among the faithful. Hardliners, maybe, but the average member was more than a little troubled, IMO. So, I think people will be more willing to move along and not look this gift horse in the Urim and Thummim.
"Let us therefore no longer pass judgment on one another, but resolve instead never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of another." --Romans 14:13

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mom3
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Re: The Courage This Change Took

Post by mom3 » 04 Apr 2019, 15:59

But my perspective is that the Nov 15 policy was not loved by hardly anyone. There was a lot of visible frustration, even among the faithful.
Agreed. Just weeks ago I had lunch with a core believer who was working on that frustration. I let her fish without biting.

Maybe if the word revelation wasn't thrown around it would help. Yes it was a horrific policy and the blood letting it is continuing to have may not dry quickly, but if it had been policy would it have helped or hindered?

Either way I am glad it's done.
"I stayed because it was God and Jesus Christ that I wanted to follow and be like, not individual human beings." Chieko Okazaki Dialogue interview

"I am coming to envision a new persona for the Church as humble followers of Jesus Christ....Joseph and his early followers came forth with lots of triumphalist rhetoric, but I think we need a new voice, one of humility, friendship and service. We should teach people to believe in God because it will soften their hearts and make them more willing to serve." - Richard Bushman

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