Church to allow baptisms, blessings for children of LGBT parents, updates handbook regarding 'apostasy'

Public forum for topics that don't fit into the other categories.
User avatar
DarkJedi
Posts: 6717
Joined: 24 Aug 2013, 20:53

Re: Church to allow baptisms, blessings for children of LGBT parents, updates handbook regarding 'apostasy'

Post by DarkJedi » 11 Apr 2019, 06:22

I could see the church getting out of the marriage business and only doing sealings, and a few years ago I though that was very likely because of the legalization of gay marriage. One of the arguments against legalization was the fear that churches might be forced to perform or at least recognize gay marriages. Gay marriage has been legal in my state for several years (we one of the early ones) and no such thing has ever even come close to happening here as far as I know. I credit that to separation of church and state. Besides, who would want to be married in (and/or be a member of) a church that doesn't give you the same privileges other churches might. And brings me to another point - policy change or not, this affects very few people as far as actual baptisms go. The vast majority of married gay couple members (or ex-members) are not active and have no desire to be and don;t want their kids to be either. My own opposition to the policy was that it was unfair - it treated gays couples (and their children) differently than hetero couples (and their children) for the same sin. If your definition of justice is fairness (mine is), then the policy was not just and therefore not something I think God would support (keeping in mind of course that justice in that sense doesn't really come into play in this life and is a major part of the atonement of Jesus Christ).
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

My Introduction

Minyan Man
Posts: 1721
Joined: 15 Sep 2011, 13:40

Re: Church to allow baptisms, blessings for children of LGBT parents, updates handbook regarding 'apostasy'

Post by Minyan Man » 11 Apr 2019, 06:49

I've never thought about this before, is there anything that prevents the church from performing civil wedding ceremonies for same sex partners?
Has anyone on this forum, gone to a same sex, wedding ceremony performed by an LDS leader?

If the church can't or won't perform the (civil) wedding ceremony, would this same family even want baptisms, blessings for children, etc?
If I were an LGBT partner/parent, I probably wouldn't.

Just curious.

User avatar
dande48
Posts: 1443
Joined: 24 Jan 2016, 16:35
Location: Wherever there is danger

Re: Church to allow baptisms, blessings for children of LGBT parents, updates handbook regarding 'apostasy'

Post by dande48 » 11 Apr 2019, 07:32

Minyan Man wrote:
11 Apr 2019, 06:49
I've never thought about this before, is there anything that prevents the church from performing civil wedding ceremonies for same sex partners?
Has anyone on this forum, gone to a same sex, wedding ceremony performed by an LDS leader?
Legally, a Bishop can perform a civil wedding for same sex couples. But I'm fairly confident the Church would ex him, since it's still considered a grievous sin, and the Bishop would be facilitating it. I understand they have in the past.
Minyan Man wrote:
11 Apr 2019, 06:49
If the church can't or won't perform the (civil) wedding ceremony, would this same family even want baptisms, blessings for children, etc?
If I were an LGBT partner/parent, I probably wouldn't.
I think it's one of the things advocates pushed for that most of those affected never wanted in the first place. Those pushing for the "baby blessings" (what I call psudo-infant baptism), is most likely coming from the parents or grandparents of a same-sex couple, not the couple themselves, in order to increase the likelyhood of that child's activity in the Church by making them a "psudo-member". Save the kid's soul, etc, etc. Otherwise, they'd just give the kid a normal priesthood blessing in the home.

While the policy has changed, the issues surrounding the policy still remain; i.e. that kid is going to be taught some things at Church which absolutely will contradict their family structure.
"The whole world is a comedy to those that think, a tragedy to those that feel." - Horace Walpole

"Even though there are no ways of knowing for sure, there are ways of knowing for pretty sure."
-Lemony Snicket

nibbler
Posts: 4149
Joined: 14 Nov 2013, 07:34
Location: Ten miles west of the exact centre of the universe

Re: Church to allow baptisms, blessings for children of LGBT parents, updates handbook regarding 'apostasy'

Post by nibbler » 11 Apr 2019, 08:42

Handbook 1 answers that question:
Handbook 1; Section 3.6.3.1 wrote:Church officers and Latter-day Saint chaplains are not to use their ecclesiastical authority to perform marriages between two people of the same sex.
If you want to get very technical, that sounds like a bishop could perform a same sex marriage but they would have to obtain authority to perform marriages apart from their authority as a BP and make it clear (somehow) that they are using the non-church given authority to perform the marriage.

Even then I'd imagine there would be an issue. Optically it would be the bishop using his authority to perform the marriage even if they were acting with authority provided elsewhere.

User avatar
DarkJedi
Posts: 6717
Joined: 24 Aug 2013, 20:53

Re: Church to allow baptisms, blessings for children of LGBT parents, updates handbook regarding 'apostasy'

Post by DarkJedi » 12 Apr 2019, 06:26

This week's Mormonland podcast features Gregory Prince on the policy and its reversal. I learned some things from his perspective.

https://www.sltrib.com/podcasts/mormonland/
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

My Introduction

User avatar
Rumin8
Posts: 99
Joined: 25 Mar 2018, 14:00

Re: Church to allow baptisms, blessings for children of LGBT parents, updates handbook regarding 'apostasy'

Post by Rumin8 » 12 Apr 2019, 11:11

nibbler wrote:
11 Apr 2019, 08:42
Handbook 1 answers that question:
Handbook 1; Section 3.6.3.1 wrote:Church officers and Latter-day Saint chaplains are not to use their ecclesiastical authority to perform marriages between two people of the same sex.
If you want to get very technical, that sounds like a bishop could perform a same sex marriage but they would have to obtain authority to perform marriages apart from their authority as a BP and make it clear (somehow) that they are using the non-church given authority to perform the marriage.

Even then I'd imagine there would be an issue. Optically it would be the bishop using his authority to perform the marriage even if they were acting with authority provided elsewhere.
I had an interesting conversation with my mother and wife about something similar to this. My nephew is gay, and recently became engaged to his partner. In order to help facilitate the marriage of one of my best friends, I went online last summer and got "ordained" so that I could legally officiate at his wedding. I performed the ceremony and it was one of the most rewarding experiences of my life. I don't plan to do this often, but when close friends or family desire my help, I freely offer it. I did so in the case of my nephew, figuring it would mean more if I officiated than some random government official. Both my wife and mother objected to this offer, but for different reasons. My mother because she felt it could be grounds for me to be excommunicated (I don't agree, but can see her point and fear) and my wife because while she's supportive of my nephew, she felt that having me officiate went to far (I see her point but don't necessarily agree). This may all be avoided if one of his friends officiates. In any case, these were some interesting and thought provoking discussions I've had recently about boundaries and how far a member could go in supporting a same-sex lifestyle without endangering their church standing.
"Moderation in all things, especially moderation." - Ralph Waldo Emerson

"Be excellent to each other." - Abraham Lincoln to Bill & Ted

Roy
Posts: 5761
Joined: 07 Oct 2010, 14:16
Location: Pacific Northwest

Re: Church to allow baptisms, blessings for children of LGBT parents, updates handbook regarding 'apostasy'

Post by Roy » 12 Apr 2019, 11:23

Thank you for sharing that Rumin. Sounds like an interesting moral, ethical, and social quagmire to navigate. Sometimes those sorts of sticky issues provide the greatest opportunities for personal growth.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13

User avatar
DarkJedi
Posts: 6717
Joined: 24 Aug 2013, 20:53

Re: Church to allow baptisms, blessings for children of LGBT parents, updates handbook regarding 'apostasy'

Post by DarkJedi » 12 Apr 2019, 16:00

I agree with Roy, Rumin - it does seem difficult. My daughter had been engaged to a non-member atheist (self described) and I had offered to get an online ordination and perform their wedding. My wife was supportive of the idea and DD was not opposed. I don't guess I believe this is related at all to any "official position" I might have int he church. It has nothing to do with this church at all. But I can see how someone else might see it in an entirely different light. FWIW, Robert Kirby did once write a column about how he got ordained and did perform a gay marriage and he's still a member.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

My Introduction

User avatar
mom3
Posts: 3986
Joined: 02 Apr 2011, 14:11

Re: Church to allow baptisms, blessings for children of LGBT parents, updates handbook regarding 'apostasy'

Post by mom3 » 12 Apr 2019, 20:35

Thanks for the podcast DJ.
"I stayed because it was God and Jesus Christ that I wanted to follow and be like, not individual human beings." Chieko Okazaki Dialogue interview

"I am coming to envision a new persona for the Church as humble followers of Jesus Christ....Joseph and his early followers came forth with lots of triumphalist rhetoric, but I think we need a new voice, one of humility, friendship and service. We should teach people to believe in God because it will soften their hearts and make them more willing to serve." - Richard Bushman

User avatar
SamBee
Posts: 5389
Joined: 14 Mar 2010, 04:55

Re: Church to allow baptisms, blessings for children of LGBT parents, updates handbook regarding 'apostasy'

Post by SamBee » 13 Apr 2019, 03:06

DarkJedi wrote:
11 Apr 2019, 06:22
The vast majority of married gay couple members (or ex-members) are not active and have no desire to be and don;t want their kids to be either. My own opposition to the policy was that it was unfair - it treated gays couples (and their children) differently than hetero couples (and their children) for the same sin.
Actually as I have pointed out before, it affects heterosexual parents too. If someone gets married, has a child and their other half runs off with a homosexual partner, that means that their child would have been excluded from these church rituals, because of the behavior of their other half. I dated someone at high school who I think leaned towards lesbianism more than heterosexuality - it would have been possible we could have had children...

Now if she got married to me, and ran off with a woman & divorced me, not only would I be still paying money to her to live off, but she would almost certainly have custody of the child(ren), and I would have to pay to get access to them.

But say I did get occasional access to them or even got custody (which is unlikely given that men rarely do get that in divorce courts except in extreme cases)... Then if I wanted the child(ren) to "obtain church blessings", a bishop or whoever could turn around and say that their mother was lesbian and refuse them (even if their mother herself consented).
DASH1730 "An Area Authority...[was] asked...who...would go to the Telestial kingdom. His answer: "murderers, adulterers and a lot of surprised Mormons!"'
1ST PRES 1978 "[LDS] believe...there is truth in many religions and philosophies...good and great religious leaders... have raised the spiritual, moral, and ethical awareness of their people. When we speak of The [LDS] as the only true church...it is...authorized to administer the ordinances...by Jesus Christ... we do not mean... it is the only teacher of truth."

Post Reply