Church to allow baptisms, blessings for children of LGBT parents, updates handbook regarding 'apostasy'

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Roy
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Re: Church to allow baptisms, blessings for children of LGBT parents, updates handbook regarding 'apostasy'

Post by Roy » 04 Apr 2019, 10:57

I got emotional texting my wife about this announcement. I wanted her to contact her openly gay cousin to tell him the good news.

She reminded me that her cousin has long since left the church and is not consumed by LDS issues anymore. This news would likely bring to him a mixture of emotions and should be handled delicately. We cannot burst into the scene like people at a surprise party, "Happy SSM is no longer automatic apostacy Day!" That would be insensitive of us.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

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grobert93
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Re: Church to allow baptisms, blessings for children of LGBT parents, updates handbook regarding 'apostasy'

Post by grobert93 » 04 Apr 2019, 11:16

Roy wrote:
04 Apr 2019, 10:57
I got emotional texting my wife about this announcement. I wanted her to contact her openly gay cousin to tell him the good news.

She reminded me that her cousin has long since left the church and is not consumed by LDS issues anymore. This news would likely bring to him a mixture of emotions and should be handled delicately. We cannot burst into the scene like people at a surprise party, "Happy SSM is no longer automatic apostacy Day!" That would be insensitive of us.
Which has me ponder to what extent any previous excommunication and other damages will be reversed or given the opportunity for such reversal? Will people who were kicked out of the church desire to come back? Is it too late?

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On Own Now
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Re: Church to allow baptisms, blessings for children of LGBT parents, updates handbook regarding 'apostasy'

Post by On Own Now » 04 Apr 2019, 11:18

Roy wrote:
04 Apr 2019, 10:57
I got emotional texting my wife about this announcement. I wanted her to contact her openly gay cousin to tell him the good news.

She reminded me that her cousin has long since left the church and is not consumed by LDS issues anymore. This news would likely bring to him a mixture of emotions and should be handled delicately. We cannot burst into the scene like people at a surprise party, "Happy SSM is no longer automatic apostacy Day!" That would be insensitive of us.
True point. This hasn't solved all issues. It has taken some edge off, but not all. I look forward to a future day when SSM is considered part of the Church program, but that day isn't yet, and probably won't be for awhile.

Your story also reminded me of a few-years-ago occurrence at work. On the day that Pope Benedict announced that he would be the first-ever Pope to step down due to age/health issues, I went over to talk to an active Catholic friend and said, "Wow, that was some surprising news about the Pope, huh?" to which he replied, "why, what do you mean?"... "Oh... uh... you might want to check CNN" and I walked away wishing I had just let him discover it on his own.
"Let us therefore no longer pass judgment on one another, but resolve instead never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of another." --Romans 14:13

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dande48
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Re: Church to allow baptisms, blessings for children of LGBT parents, updates handbook regarding 'apostasy'

Post by dande48 » 04 Apr 2019, 11:39

SilentDawning wrote:
04 Apr 2019, 10:16
Question -- is homosexuality within a same-sex marriage considered a breach of the law of chastity, but not apostasy?
The Church doesn't recognize SSM as legitimate, and so consider sexual activity within SSM the exact same as outside.
grobert93 wrote:
04 Apr 2019, 11:16
Which has me ponder to what extent any previous excommunication and other damages will be reversed or given the opportunity for such reversal?
Probably not. There are many reasons why a person can get exed, related to sexual transgressions. They're just not labeling it as "apostasy". I think advocacy and open participation in a "serious transgression" would still qualify as apostasy, regardless of what that serious transgression is. Adultery, for example, can still be punished through excommunication, without being considered "apostasy". Same with embezzlement, child abuse, etc, etc. "Apostasy" is definitely the worst thing someone can be charged with in the Church, and the Church took homosexual activity out of that subset, and into the subset of "serious transgressions".

I am interested to see, now, how they handle same-sex relations that aren't "sexual". For example, can they go on "dates"? Hold hands? What would happen if they were caught? I have a hard time believing it'll be treated the same as if it were heterosexual.
"The whole world is a comedy to those that think, a tragedy to those that feel." - Horace Walpole

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mom3
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Re: Church to allow baptisms, blessings for children of LGBT parents, updates handbook regarding 'apostasy'

Post by mom3 » 04 Apr 2019, 11:52

Happy SSM is no longer automatic apostacy Day!" That would be insensitive of us.
There will be some significant pain. We need to pour on the love to both sides of the aisle. Meet people where they are at and let time heal the valid wounds.


On another note - The Methodist General Conference went the opposite of ours, mostly. Isn't life strange?
"I stayed because it was God and Jesus Christ that I wanted to follow and be like, not individual human beings." Chieko Okazaki Dialogue interview

"I am coming to envision a new persona for the Church as humble followers of Jesus Christ....Joseph and his early followers came forth with lots of triumphalist rhetoric, but I think we need a new voice, one of humility, friendship and service. We should teach people to believe in God because it will soften their hearts and make them more willing to serve." - Richard Bushman

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bridget_night
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Re: Church to allow baptisms, blessings for children of LGBT parents, updates handbook regarding 'apostasy'

Post by bridget_night » 04 Apr 2019, 12:41

Obviously happy for our LGBTQ brothers and sisters. But can we rage a bit about how we got here? President Nelson came out in January 2016 and emphatically proclaimed that this policy was revelation! Direct from God. He described the process of how President Monson received the revelation from God, and all of the 15 knew it and supported it. Elder Christofferson was trotted out and told us that this was doctrine. How can this be revelation if it is completely rescinded in three years? Those of us who stood up against this policy were persecuted for it, all under the mantra of follow the prophet and these men were inspired from God. How could these men think that the 2015 revelation was a good thing and inspired and now not? It did so much harm.

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mom3
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Re: Church to allow baptisms, blessings for children of LGBT parents, updates handbook regarding 'apostasy'

Post by mom3 » 04 Apr 2019, 12:54

Bridget - The following is from a woman who shares your pain. I hope it helps.

https://bycommonconsent.com/2019/04/04/ ... veclothes/


For good measure I am cyber hugging you as tight as I can. Your family wasn't the first family to experience this. Our brothers and sister of color had decades of it. I grieve with you as much as I am able.
"I stayed because it was God and Jesus Christ that I wanted to follow and be like, not individual human beings." Chieko Okazaki Dialogue interview

"I am coming to envision a new persona for the Church as humble followers of Jesus Christ....Joseph and his early followers came forth with lots of triumphalist rhetoric, but I think we need a new voice, one of humility, friendship and service. We should teach people to believe in God because it will soften their hearts and make them more willing to serve." - Richard Bushman

DoubtingTom
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Re: Church to allow baptisms, blessings for children of LGBT parents, updates handbook regarding 'apostasy'

Post by DoubtingTom » 04 Apr 2019, 13:44

While we still consider such a marriage to be a serious transgression, it will not be treated as apostasy for purposes of church discipline. Instead, the immoral conduct in heterosexual or homosexual relationships will be treated in the same way.
A heterosexual couple can hold hands, cuddle, kiss, even make out a little and none of these actions are considered immoral. Will the same allowances now be made for a homosexual couple? As long as they don’t cross certain lines, can a gay couple hold hands and sit together in church and still be considered in good standing and hold temple recommends?

I’m unclear on the full implications of this announcement, but I’m hopeful that those words can be taken at face value but I also doubt that’s the case.

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Re: Church to allow baptisms, blessings for children of LGBT parents, updates handbook regarding 'apostasy'

Post by Curt Sunshine » 04 Apr 2019, 13:50

The wording of the actual announcement stated that heterosexual and homosexual activity would be treated in exactly the same way now.

I know actual implementation of that standard will depend on the water getting to the end of the local rows, so I will make sure it gets to the end of mine. I will do so gently and meekly and humbly, but I will do so.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

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DarkJedi
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Re: Church to allow baptisms, blessings for children of LGBT parents, updates handbook regarding 'apostasy'

Post by DarkJedi » 04 Apr 2019, 15:18

bridget_night wrote:
04 Apr 2019, 12:41
Obviously happy for our LGBTQ brothers and sisters. But can we rage a bit about how we got here? President Nelson came out in January 2016 and emphatically proclaimed that this policy was revelation! Direct from God. He described the process of how President Monson received the revelation from God, and all of the 15 knew it and supported it. Elder Christofferson was trotted out and told us that this was doctrine. How can this be revelation if it is completely rescinded in three years? Those of us who stood up against this policy were persecuted for it, all under the mantra of follow the prophet and these men were inspired from God. How could these men think that the 2015 revelation was a good thing and inspired and now not? It did so much harm.
I know, talk about your cognitive dissonance, right? If ever there was cognitive dissonance, here it is. But if you read the DN article, we're not the only ones being hit with it. The article points out the old policy was revelation according to Nelson, but also points out this one is revelation too. So, shoe on the other foot - you're a totally in orthodox believer who wholeheartedly believed the old policy really was revelation - and now so is this? :wtf: How can this evil suddenly be less evil and both making it more evil be a revelation and making it less evil both be revelation? They're in the same boat we are. I'm actually looking forward to having some discussion with some of the Old Guard - and frankly it is quite possible we may lose some of them.

Here are my own thoughts on the subject. I did not believe the old policy to be anything more than that - a policy. I did not (and do not) believe that was revelation. Period. I'm also not sure this is revelation, but I am sure it is policy. We are in the midst of a major - MAJOR - cultural shift in the church. The church is NOT a perfect (whole, complete) organization run by imperfect people. Like us, it may become perfect in time - this is a big step in that direction for us and the church. As for my own cognitive dissonance, yes I do believe the leadership could have believed the old policy was revelation and the new policy is revelation. They both could be, neither could be or one or the other could be. Either way, we're closer to the right place now with or without revelation. If the leadership needs to tell the Old Guard it's revelation to help them accept it, it's fine with me. My truth does not change.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

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