Church to allow baptisms, blessings for children of LGBT parents, updates handbook regarding 'apostasy'

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DarkJedi
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Re: Church to allow baptisms, blessings for children of LGBT parents, updates handbook regarding 'apostasy'

Post by DarkJedi » 13 Apr 2019, 05:22

SamBee wrote:
13 Apr 2019, 03:06
DarkJedi wrote:
11 Apr 2019, 06:22
The vast majority of married gay couple members (or ex-members) are not active and have no desire to be and don;t want their kids to be either. My own opposition to the policy was that it was unfair - it treated gays couples (and their children) differently than hetero couples (and their children) for the same sin.
Actually as I have pointed out before, it affects heterosexual parents too. If someone gets married, has a child and their other half runs off with a homosexual partner, that means that their child would have been excluded from these church rituals, because of the behavior of their other half. I dated someone at high school who I think leaned towards lesbianism more than heterosexuality - it would have been possible we could have had children...

Now if she got married to me, and ran off with a woman & divorced me, not only would I be still paying money to her to live off, but she would almost certainly have custody of the child(ren), and I would have to pay to get access to them.

But say I did get occasional access to them or even got custody (which is unlikely given that men rarely do get that in divorce courts except in extreme cases)... Then if I wanted the child(ren) to "obtain church blessings", a bishop or whoever could turn around and say that their mother was lesbian and refuse them (even if their mother herself consented).
You are correct, Sam, but it's still a very small number of children. I'm one of the biggest opponents of the old policy, we're on the same page.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

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SamBee
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Re: Church to allow baptisms, blessings for children of LGBT parents, updates handbook regarding 'apostasy'

Post by SamBee » 13 Apr 2019, 15:31

My point is that that policy's consequences didn't just affect LGBT people, but heterosexual parents as well as their children. Very poorly thought out.

I wager that there are quite a few families in this position, where one half has gone into a same sex relationship and the other doesn't. I myself know of a few people who used to attend our ward who are now in gay relationships. What if they had married someone in the church, had children (both of which are heavily encouraged by the LDS) and then gone off that way? What about converts who had children before joining?

One girl who used to be in YSA with seemed obviously lesbian to me by her behavior, but no one else picked up on it and she wasn't out of the closet. I never remarked on it at the time. Some years down the line and it's now on her Facebook profile, and she's inactive.
DASH1730 "An Area Authority...[was] asked...who...would go to the Telestial kingdom. His answer: "murderers, adulterers and a lot of surprised Mormons!"'
1ST PRES 1978 "[LDS] believe...there is truth in many religions and philosophies...good and great religious leaders... have raised the spiritual, moral, and ethical awareness of their people. When we speak of The [LDS] as the only true church...it is...authorized to administer the ordinances...by Jesus Christ... we do not mean... it is the only teacher of truth."

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DarkJedi
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Re: Church to allow baptisms, blessings for children of LGBT parents, updates handbook regarding 'apostasy'

Post by DarkJedi » 13 Apr 2019, 17:24

I don't disagree Sam, but it's really relative. Out of 16 million members we're talking a few thousand at the very most. And homosexuals are not the only people in situations like that - I know several families just in my stake where one spouse has become disaffected (sometimes divorced, sometimes not) or never was a member and won't allow the children to be baptized, ordained, etc. Again, out of 16 million it's a very small number/percentage. One of the problems with the policy was that it was the church making the ordinances unavailable to that very small number. That said, it is not my intention to minimize the individual impact the policy had on people - it did hurt people and in some ways still does. I think those few thousand people do matter to the Lord.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

My Introduction

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SamBee
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Re: Church to allow baptisms, blessings for children of LGBT parents, updates handbook regarding 'apostasy'

Post by SamBee » 13 Apr 2019, 17:44

Sure, I get that, but with those parents, it's not the result of an official policy.

I believe it was the church's biggest misfire since they finally got rid of the priesthood ban.
DASH1730 "An Area Authority...[was] asked...who...would go to the Telestial kingdom. His answer: "murderers, adulterers and a lot of surprised Mormons!"'
1ST PRES 1978 "[LDS] believe...there is truth in many religions and philosophies...good and great religious leaders... have raised the spiritual, moral, and ethical awareness of their people. When we speak of The [LDS] as the only true church...it is...authorized to administer the ordinances...by Jesus Christ... we do not mean... it is the only teacher of truth."

nibbler
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Re: Church to allow baptisms, blessings for children of LGBT parents, updates handbook regarding 'apostasy'

Post by nibbler » 25 Aug 2019, 18:00

Recently the reversal of the POX has come under question.

Days after the POX reversal (early April) the church issued many updates to the Church Handbook of Instruction 1. Those updates did not include a reversal of the POX. At the time no one was really concerned, citing that the April updates to the handbook were probably in the works before the POX reversal, and that they would be in the next round of updates.

The next round of updates happened a few days ago. Those updates did not remove the POX from official policy.

The handbook does include language that removes the one year penalty for getting sealed after a civil union. I mention this because the policy of the one year penalty changed after the POX reversal. It made it into the updated handbook while the POX reversal did not.

(parenthetical note: isn't it great to have a handbook to help minister to people that's full of exclusion policies and penalties)

I've read rumors that the entire chapter in which the POX language is found is currently being rewritten (as opposed to tweaks to language here and there) and that the updates will be released sometime in the next 6 weeks.

That said... this is kind of crazy. BPs and SPs referencing the handbook will still find the POX. The POX was supposedly reversed in early April. Did we reverse the policy or not???

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mom3
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Re: Church to allow baptisms, blessings for children of LGBT parents, updates handbook regarding 'apostasy'

Post by mom3 » 25 Aug 2019, 21:29

I am ill, if this happens. ^^^^^
"I stayed because it was God and Jesus Christ that I wanted to follow and be like, not individual human beings." Chieko Okazaki Dialogue interview

"I am coming to envision a new persona for the Church as humble followers of Jesus Christ....Joseph and his early followers came forth with lots of triumphalist rhetoric, but I think we need a new voice, one of humility, friendship and service. We should teach people to believe in God because it will soften their hearts and make them more willing to serve." - Richard Bushman

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Re: Church to allow baptisms, blessings for children of LGBT parents, updates handbook regarding 'apostasy'

Post by Curt Sunshine » 26 Aug 2019, 16:11

If the entire chapter is being rewritten, I can wait - but it is tone deaf not to change that particular policy even if the rest isn't ready to publish.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

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