Church to allow baptisms, blessings for children of LGBT parents, updates handbook regarding 'apostasy'

Public forum for topics that don't fit into the other categories.
GBSmith
Posts: 975
Joined: 24 Apr 2010, 08:51

Re: Church to allow baptisms, blessings for children of LGBT parents, updates handbook regarding 'apostasy'

Post by GBSmith » 06 Apr 2019, 11:25

I just reviewed through all the posts and wonder, what about the suicides, broken marriages, resignations, and according to a Mormon Stories podcast, excommunications for "apostasy" that occurred just a few weeks prior to the announcements? I agree with the opinion that this was not revelation but opinion and then policy. The question I have is any of it revelation and for me the answer is no, not now, not about any of it.

LadyofRadiantJoy
Posts: 28
Joined: 12 Jul 2018, 09:41

Re: Church to allow baptisms, blessings for children of LGBT parents, updates handbook regarding 'apostasy'

Post by LadyofRadiantJoy » 06 Apr 2019, 12:27

Old Guard thoughts
What will happen is that the Old Guard will say it was a test of faithfulness for hte members and that's why they are both revelations from God, and any who left the church in protest failed the test.

Nibbler, your Old Guard story reminds of when I was flat out told once that I had been deceived by Satan for marrying my husband who is not Mormon. I prayed about it, expecting the "right" answer, a no, and was stunned to get a yes. He continues to be the kindest, most understanding, forgiving patience, grounding, loyal person in my life. We have been married for over 18 years, together over 20. Not always easy, almost divorced, but dude, of the devil? Hell no.

Also, your story reminds me that I had gone and prayed about this new policy, totally open, totally being willing to accept it as truth, and these words blossomed in my mind, "NO, it is not of me. It is born of fear." Now I can be like, see this my orthodox family of birth, yeah, I was right, and the Brethren were actually humble enough to get the revelation that it was not a good policy.

Here is what bothers me, it doesn't undo the damage. There is no "We are sorry for the deaths this has caused" because suicides went up after the policy change. No "we are sorry for the family strife it has caused" because divorced couples went to court to get sole custody just so their kids could be baptized. No, "we are sorry for the existential crises your children experienced" because baptisms of eight year olds were cancelled after the new policy. There is no "We are sorry for the spiritual abuse you experienced by our uncompassionate policies." And quite frankly they need that apology for EVERYTHING. For the Priesthood ban. For ex'ing Sam Young and not properly changing worthiness interviews of children and youth. For sexual molestation and rape being a "may" require disciplinary counsel. May? MAY? That should be automatic disciplinary counsel! For protecting Joseph L Bishop and not ex'ing that guy. For ex'ing Kate Kelly over the Priesthood session protests (it rankles that nonmember men can go to Priesthood session, but faithful women can't go with their sons, wtf).

So, it all goes back to the way it was before, except now we have blood on our hands without any acknowledgement of that. And it frankly pisses me off. I'm happy the policy changed. But there is nothing about the real damage caused.

Silent Dawning, women in the mission field and baptisms not going up? I wonder how much of that is due to the fact that the women have to wait for the men to do the baptizing.

GBSmith, they're not gonna do anything about it. They never have before, why would they now?

When I first read about it, I was overjoyed, tearful, hopeful, and then reality set in. I still can't trust them as a woman with my body and soul. Until more changes, they're not gonna get my daughter back either. She is openly in a gay relationship and her first question to me was, "is it still a sin to be in a gay marriage?" Yes. "Then I'm not going back." And that's when I remembered all the other BS the church still doesn't wanna look at. Ugh.

Roy
Posts: 5606
Joined: 07 Oct 2010, 14:16
Location: Pacific Northwest

Re: Church to allow baptisms, blessings for children of LGBT parents, updates handbook regarding 'apostasy'

Post by Roy » 07 Apr 2019, 09:07

I agree with many of the feelings shared here. They are valid.

Yes, it appears that the church overreacted to the legalization of SSM with this policy. Yes, it did damage. Yes, it was called revelation. Yes, now that the POX is removed the damage hasn't gone away in many cases AND LGBTQ individuals are now back to the gray area of leadership roulette where they resided before the POX. Yes, the church is not apologizing.

The CNN article called this change the Mormon "Don't ask, Don't tell". If I recall correctly "Don't ask, Don't tell" was a precursor to full acceptance of gays in the military. I can only hope that the gray area that our gay membership now finds itself in will someday lead to even more progress. As members come to know and love upstanding individuals in their communities and congregations that are not straight... As the broader society continues to evolve and homophobia continues to be viewed as primitive and backwards, I believe we will see even more movement on this issue.

I also believe on that day that it will be revelation that makes that change possible.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13

User avatar
SamBee
Posts: 5341
Joined: 14 Mar 2010, 04:55

Re: Church to allow baptisms, blessings for children of LGBT parents, updates handbook regarding 'apostasy'

Post by SamBee » 07 Apr 2019, 10:06

I'm very glad this has happened. Even disregarding the position on being LGBT, it dragged in children who were not necessarily so.
DASH1730 "An Area Authority...[was] asked...who...would go to the Telestial kingdom. His answer: "murderers, adulterers and a lot of surprised Mormons!"'
1ST PRES 1978 "[LDS] believe...there is truth in many religions and philosophies...good and great religious leaders... have raised the spiritual, moral, and ethical awareness of their people. When we speak of The [LDS] as the only true church...it is...authorized to administer the ordinances...by Jesus Christ... we do not mean... it is the only teacher of truth."

Ebowalker
Posts: 6
Joined: 03 Aug 2015, 05:37

Re: Church to allow baptisms, blessings for children of LGBT parents, updates handbook regarding 'apostasy'

Post by Ebowalker » 09 Apr 2019, 17:17

In my opinion, this recent announcement has little to do with humility or recognition and everything to do with legal protection. It would not be difficult for someone to accuse the church of singling out and discriminating against a recognized group of people. I’m not sure about US laws, but here in Canada no one felt comfortable with the original policy. I doubt it was ever implemented here, if it was I’d be joined with many others to condemn it. SSM is the norm here and has been for almost 15 years. I always felt it was a cultural policy and the Church is slowly realizing that local culture does not work internationally.

User avatar
nibbler
Posts: 4081
Joined: 14 Nov 2013, 07:34
Location: Ten miles west of the exact centre of the universe

Re: Church to allow baptisms, blessings for children of LGBT parents, updates handbook regarding 'apostasy'

Post by nibbler » 09 Apr 2019, 18:27

Ebowalker wrote:
09 Apr 2019, 17:17
I always felt it was a cultural policy and the Church is slowly realizing that local culture does not work internationally.
I could see this going both ways. The church is international and social issues that may enjoy majority acceptance in the USA and/or Canada may not be tolerated at all in other countries that the church operates in. It almost sets up a scenario where the church has to make global policy than can apply to the lowest common denominator. Hey, it's a theory. <shrugs>
If one dream dies, dream another dream. If you get knocked down, get back up and go again.
― Joel Osteen

User avatar
DarkJedi
Posts: 6593
Joined: 24 Aug 2013, 20:53

Re: Church to allow baptisms, blessings for children of LGBT parents, updates handbook regarding 'apostasy'

Post by DarkJedi » 10 Apr 2019, 04:55

nibbler wrote:
09 Apr 2019, 18:27
Ebowalker wrote:
09 Apr 2019, 17:17
I always felt it was a cultural policy and the Church is slowly realizing that local culture does not work internationally.
I could see this going both ways. The church is international and social issues that may enjoy majority acceptance in the USA and/or Canada may not be tolerated at all in other countries that the church operates in. It almost sets up a scenario where the church has to make global policy than can apply to the lowest common denominator. Hey, it's a theory. <shrugs>
In this case I think the lowest common denominators are North America and Europe. The places where the church is growing most, Africa and South America, are mostly not in favor of LGBTQ+ rights, gay marriage, etc. I'm not sure this change is so much for legal protection as it is for cultural reasons here in the US. I'm sure there are some, but taking into account I do live in the liberal northeast US I don't know a single YSA (or young married adult) who liked the policy. If the church's real concern is the bleeding of millennials, and I think it is a major concern of the Q15, this was more an attempt at appeasement than anything. They're trying to stop the hemorrhage. We also need take into account the church's "allies" on the anti-gay marriage front - the Catholics and evangelicals - which make up a much larger part of the population than we do. They are both powerful enough to stave off any accusations of discrimination and assert separation of church and state. If the LDS church is discriminating, so are they.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

My Introduction

grobert93
Posts: 70
Joined: 30 Nov 2015, 16:05

Re: Church to allow baptisms, blessings for children of LGBT parents, updates handbook regarding 'apostasy'

Post by grobert93 » 10 Apr 2019, 05:14

Ebowalker wrote:
09 Apr 2019, 17:17
In my opinion, this recent announcement has little to do with humility or recognition and everything to do with legal protection. It would not be difficult for someone to accuse the church of singling out and discriminating against a recognized group of people. I’m not sure about US laws, but here in Canada no one felt comfortable with the original policy. I doubt it was ever implemented here, if it was I’d be joined with many others to condemn it. SSM is the norm here and has been for almost 15 years. I always felt it was a cultural policy and the Church is slowly realizing that local culture does not work internationally.
Interestingly enough, the US only recently made gay marriage legal, so the church had quite a long time of legal protection in the US considering.

User avatar
dande48
Posts: 1443
Joined: 24 Jan 2016, 16:35
Location: Wherever there is danger

Re: Church to allow baptisms, blessings for children of LGBT parents, updates handbook regarding 'apostasy'

Post by dande48 » 10 Apr 2019, 06:30

Does the Church really need to take extra legal precautions, at least in the US? There are all sorts of legal safeguards against religious prosecution, at least in the US. It's not like a wedding-cake business, who can be taken to court for refusing service to a gay couple. Heck, even the few laws that do apply to religions (usually involving their tax-exemption status), the Church has regularly broken. But no one can do anything about it, because "religion". Trump even "upped" their freedom a couple years back, removing the prior restrictions on a religions' political involvement.

I'd be willing to bet, the change happened for "appeasement". Or because God changed his mind.
Last edited by dande48 on 10 Apr 2019, 12:47, edited 1 time in total.
"The whole world is a comedy to those that think, a tragedy to those that feel." - Horace Walpole

"Even though there are no ways of knowing for sure, there are ways of knowing for pretty sure."
-Lemony Snicket

Roy
Posts: 5606
Joined: 07 Oct 2010, 14:16
Location: Pacific Northwest

Re: Church to allow baptisms, blessings for children of LGBT parents, updates handbook regarding 'apostasy'

Post by Roy » 10 Apr 2019, 12:05

I understand that the church is legally protected (at least in the US) from discriminating for doctrinal reasons.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13

Post Reply