Atonement

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Curt Sunshine
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Re: Atonement

Post by Curt Sunshine » 02 Apr 2019, 14:47

I once came across a post/blog/presentation where the author had done a lot of research on which of these theories are represented in LDS teachings, literature, and hymns. The author found that multiple paradigms were represented.


"The Atonement as Taught in Our Hymns (http://thingsofmysoul.blogspot.com/2014 ... nt-as.html)

The lesson mentioned in the previous post is here:

Classic Atonement Theories throughout History" (http://thingsofmysoul.blogspot.com/2014 ... assic.html)

Also, I see Jesus' life as the most important aspect of the Atonement. If anyone is interested in why, here is a link to a talk I gave in 2015:

"My Talk on the Atonement: Jesus' Life as the Most Important Element" (http://thingsofmysoul.blogspot.com/2015 ... -most.html)
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

Roy
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Re: Atonement

Post by Roy » 02 Apr 2019, 15:15

dande48 wrote:
02 Apr 2019, 12:16
Unless it undermines the authority of the "Church", you can openly believe and say just about whatever you want and not get in any official trouble. But what is/isn't doctrine is highly up to debate, and in general, members tend to butt heads when someone mentions a belief that goes against what they believe to be doctrine. Especially with regards to something so central to the gospel, I'd tread carefully.
Yes, this is similar to the statement that says that tithing is between the individual and the Lord to determine. You can make whatever determination makes sense to you and your conscience in private but good luck trying to openly promote any calculation other than 10% of gross in church settings. However, I do like to stress that the absence of an official answer is in itself permission to fill in the blanks on your own depending on what brings meaning to your life and speaks to your soul.
Rumin8 wrote:
02 Apr 2019, 12:29
I came across something like this on my mission. A companion of mine had some essay or talk. I don’t recall the author, only that it was supposed to be very hush-hush. It really made sense to me at the time. I guess it could be Skousen? Are there others out there that posit the same thing about the role the intelligences had in the atonement?
Yes, this is likely the same theory. It was passed around my mission on photocopied sheets of paper that looked like it had originally been written on an old typewriter. After some digging, it appears that this document was a transcript of a talk Bro. Skousen gave to a meeting of missionaries in Texas in 1980. Here is a link to a blog post with some information and discussion about the theory and its uniquely Mormon elements.
https://lehislibrary.wordpress.com/2011 ... atonement/
One interesting thing that I remember from the document was that it was presented that there were clues scattered through the scriptures about this "doctrine" and you had to find the clues and piece them together to get the true meaning. That seemed very exciting to my young adult mind. Now, I wonder how that is terribly different from developing a theory and then scouring the scriptures for proof texts?
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13

Roy
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Re: Atonement

Post by Roy » 02 Apr 2019, 15:20

The lesson mentioned in the previous post is here:

Classic Atonement Theories throughout History" (http://thingsofmysoul.blogspot.com/2014 ... assic.html)
Yes Curt, I could not remeber where I had seen that information. Wonderful analysis! Thank you for linking to it.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13

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Rumin8
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Re: Atonement

Post by Rumin8 » 03 Apr 2019, 09:20

Roy wrote:
02 Apr 2019, 15:15
https://lehislibrary.wordpress.com/2011 ... atonement/
One interesting thing that I remember from the document was that it was presented that there were clues scattered through the scriptures about this "doctrine" and you had to find the clues and piece them together to get the true meaning. That seemed very exciting to my young adult mind. Now, I wonder how that is terribly different from developing a theory and then scouring the scriptures for proof texts?
Thank you for the link. I’ll check it out. My recollection of the document is exactly the same. I also reacted the same way as you both then (exciting discovery and clue seeking) and today (confirmation bias?).
"Moderation in all things, especially moderation." - Ralph Waldo Emerson

"Be excellent to each other." - Abraham Lincoln to Bill & Ted

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Rumin8
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Re: Atonement

Post by Rumin8 » 03 Apr 2019, 09:24

Arrakeen wrote:
02 Apr 2019, 13:22
From Richard Rohr:
Historically we moved from human sacrifice to animal sacrifice to various modes of seeming self-sacrifice, usually involving the body. For many religions, including immature Christianity, God was distant and scary, an angry deity who must be placated. God was not someone with whom you fell in love or with whom you could imagine sharing intimacy or tenderness.

The common Christian reading of the Bible is that Jesus “died for our sins”—either to pay a debt to the devil (common in the first millennium) or to pay a debt to God the Father (proposed by Anselm of Canterbury, 1033-1109). Theologians later developed a “substitutionary atonement theory”—the strange idea that before God could love us God needed and demanded Jesus to be a blood sacrifice to ”atone” for our sin. As a result, our theology became more transactional than transformational.

...

Jesus did not come to change the mind of God about humanity (it did not need changing)! Jesus came to change the mind of humanity about God. God’s abundance and compassion make any scarcity economy of merit or atonement unhelpful and unnecessary. Jesus undid “once and for all” (Hebrews 7:27; 9:12; 10:10) all notions of human and animal sacrifice and replaced them with his new infinite economy of grace. Jesus was meant to be a game changer for religion and the human psyche.
I like this idea that the purpose of the atonement was to replace the idea of a harsh, vengeful God with a loving, compassionate God. The religion at the time had become very obsessed with the idea of displeasing God through sin, and Jesus challenged these ideas to introduce God as a loving father-figure. Jesus represented a God who rather than punishing sin or distancing himself from the "unworthy", spent his time among sinners and outcasts. Unfortunately, I think we often revert to a pre-Christ "worthiness"-based form of our religion, effectively rejecting the entire purpose of Jesus' ministry. I also think our teachings on the atonement tend to focus too much on the purpose of Jesus' death, when we also need to remember the purpose of his life. I consider both to be part of the atonement.
Arrakeen,

Can you provide the citation for this quote from Richard Rohr? I’d like to explore it in greater detail and context. What a great way to look at the atonement.
"Moderation in all things, especially moderation." - Ralph Waldo Emerson

"Be excellent to each other." - Abraham Lincoln to Bill & Ted

Arrakeen
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Re: Atonement

Post by Arrakeen » 03 Apr 2019, 14:40

Rumin8 wrote:
03 Apr 2019, 09:24
Arrakeen,

Can you provide the citation for this quote from Richard Rohr? I’d like to explore it in greater detail and context. What a great way to look at the atonement.
https://cac.org/love-not-atonement-2017-05-04/

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