Why Can't the LDS Church be open like this?

Public forum for topics that don't fit into the other categories.
User avatar
dande48
Posts: 1443
Joined: 24 Jan 2016, 16:35
Location: Wherever there is danger

Re: Why Can't the LDS Church be open like this?

Post by dande48 » 29 Jan 2019, 11:42

mom3 wrote:
29 Jan 2019, 11:01
And adding to Dande's great list - This misconduct is sexual in nature. It's appalling in every way, shape, and form. If it was monetery misuse, or something else, it too might be open to interpretation.
We've had sexual misconduct too. And just like the Catholics, the LDS leadership does everything they can to "sweep it under the rug". If they can't, they'll toss who they "need to" under the bus, to make the issue "go away" (even the victims). The Catholics might have a more systemic problem, with their celibate requirements of their clergy. But the sexual misconduct of certain LDS leaders is partly systemic as well.
"The whole world is a comedy to those that think, a tragedy to those that feel." - Horace Walpole

"Even though there are no ways of knowing for sure, there are ways of knowing for pretty sure."
-Lemony Snicket

User avatar
mom3
Posts: 3948
Joined: 02 Apr 2011, 14:11

Re: Why Can't the LDS Church be open like this?

Post by mom3 » 29 Jan 2019, 13:34

the LDS leadership does everything they can to "sweep it under the rug". If they can't, they'll toss who they "need to" under the bus, to make the issue "go away" (even the victims). The Catholics might have a more systemic problem, with their celibate requirements of their clergy. But the sexual misconduct of certain LDS leaders is partly systemic as well.
I agree. As does every sport group, college, you name it.

In light of this conversation the reason for the candor likely has a lot to do with the present Pope. He is more liberal. He also isn't the one at fault. He had to do something. And it took a long time for them to make a statement like this. This problem was going on before he became Pontiff.

We have had horrid ones, no doubt. We have handled them horrendously. We have even elected Presidents who have problems in this area. (And I am not referencing the present administration.)
"I stayed because it was God and Jesus Christ that I wanted to follow and be like, not individual human beings." Chieko Okazaki Dialogue interview

"I am coming to envision a new persona for the Church as humble followers of Jesus Christ....Joseph and his early followers came forth with lots of triumphalist rhetoric, but I think we need a new voice, one of humility, friendship and service. We should teach people to believe in God because it will soften their hearts and make them more willing to serve." - Richard Bushman

User avatar
SilentDawning
Posts: 7201
Joined: 09 May 2010, 19:55

Re: Why Can't the LDS Church be open like this?

Post by SilentDawning » 30 Jan 2019, 12:22

mom3 wrote:
29 Jan 2019, 13:34
the LDS leadership does everything they can to "sweep it under the rug". If they can't, they'll toss who they "need to" under the bus, to make the issue "go away" (even the victims). The Catholics might have a more systemic problem, with their celibate requirements of their clergy. But the sexual misconduct of certain LDS leaders is partly systemic as well.
I agree. As does every sport group, college, you name it.

In light of this conversation the reason for the candor likely has a lot to do with the present Pope. He is more liberal. He also isn't the one at fault. He had to do something. And it took a long time for them to make a statement like this. This problem was going on before he became Pontiff.

We have had horrid ones, no doubt. We have handled them horrendously. We have even elected Presidents who have problems in this area. (And I am not referencing the present administration.)
See the bolded part above. For me the difference here is that we claim to have a divine commission -- can we justify ourselves by indicating all organizations do this? That for me is the kicker...
"It doesn't have to be about the Church (church) all the time!" -- SD

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."

A man asked Jesus "do all roads lead to you?" Jesus responds,”most roads don’t lead anywhere, but I will travel any road to find you.” Adapted from The Shack, William Young

User avatar
dande48
Posts: 1443
Joined: 24 Jan 2016, 16:35
Location: Wherever there is danger

Re: Why Can't the LDS Church be open like this?

Post by dande48 » 30 Jan 2019, 13:25

SilentDawning wrote:
30 Jan 2019, 12:22
For me the difference here is that we claim to have a divine commission -- can we justify ourselves by indicating all organizations do this? That for me is the kicker...
The only groups who can make claims of "divine commission" are those who can get away with it (specifically, religions, nations, and certain leaders). Many organizations walk extremely close to that line. But I'd say just about all make claims which go against the reality of their "sins". What matters isn't so much the type of claim, but how effective it is in getting others to act against their own best interests.
"The whole world is a comedy to those that think, a tragedy to those that feel." - Horace Walpole

"Even though there are no ways of knowing for sure, there are ways of knowing for pretty sure."
-Lemony Snicket

User avatar
mom3
Posts: 3948
Joined: 02 Apr 2011, 14:11

Re: Why Can't the LDS Church be open like this?

Post by mom3 » 30 Jan 2019, 14:37

For me the difference here is that we claim to have a divine commission -- can we justify ourselves by indicating all organizations do this? That for me is the kicker...
Humans will be humans. Only one was supposedly spotless. He was judged a heretic and killed for it.

I too wish someone in the top leadership understood the impact and pain of the historic discoveries, as well as the horrid policies that have created exclusion and damage. With that understanding, I would hope words or actions would be extended to help heal the grief. It won't happen, though. It's an experience that won't be fixed. It is in that space, that we get to make decisions.

I believe in karma, and I believe it will continue to play a part in the unfolding of our church. Already the numbers who have left are staggering. Some form of Mormonism will rise up out of it and keep going. I can't fully guess what that is, but we have done it before. There is a draw beyond the history that holds people here.

Maybe when we are as old as Catholicism we will be able to have a leader be open like this.
"I stayed because it was God and Jesus Christ that I wanted to follow and be like, not individual human beings." Chieko Okazaki Dialogue interview

"I am coming to envision a new persona for the Church as humble followers of Jesus Christ....Joseph and his early followers came forth with lots of triumphalist rhetoric, but I think we need a new voice, one of humility, friendship and service. We should teach people to believe in God because it will soften their hearts and make them more willing to serve." - Richard Bushman

User avatar
dande48
Posts: 1443
Joined: 24 Jan 2016, 16:35
Location: Wherever there is danger

Re: Why Can't the LDS Church be open like this?

Post by dande48 » 30 Jan 2019, 15:43

mom3 wrote:
30 Jan 2019, 14:37
Maybe when we are as old as Catholicism we will be able to have a leader be open like this.
Think of all the scandals we'll have by then! :D
"The whole world is a comedy to those that think, a tragedy to those that feel." - Horace Walpole

"Even though there are no ways of knowing for sure, there are ways of knowing for pretty sure."
-Lemony Snicket

User avatar
SilentDawning
Posts: 7201
Joined: 09 May 2010, 19:55

Re: Why Can't the LDS Church be open like this?

Post by SilentDawning » 30 Jan 2019, 18:52

mom3 wrote:
30 Jan 2019, 14:37
For me the difference here is that we claim to have a divine commission -- can we justify ourselves by indicating all organizations do this? That for me is the kicker...
Humans will be humans. Only one was supposedly spotless. He was judged a heretic and killed for it.

I too wish someone in the top leadership understood the impact and pain of the historic discoveries, as well as the horrid policies that have created exclusion and damage. With that understanding, I would hope words or actions would be extended to help heal the grief. It won't happen, though. It's an experience that won't be fixed. It is in that space, that we get to make decisions.

I believe in karma, and I believe it will continue to play a part in the unfolding of our church. Already the numbers who have left are staggering. Some form of Mormonism will rise up out of it and keep going. I can't fully guess what that is, but we have done it before. There is a draw beyond the history that holds people here.

Maybe when we are as old as Catholicism we will be able to have a leader be open like this.
Nonetheless, I would certainly expect a higher standard of behavior when things go wrong as He works through these imperfect humans.
"It doesn't have to be about the Church (church) all the time!" -- SD

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."

A man asked Jesus "do all roads lead to you?" Jesus responds,”most roads don’t lead anywhere, but I will travel any road to find you.” Adapted from The Shack, William Young

User avatar
mom3
Posts: 3948
Joined: 02 Apr 2011, 14:11

Re: Why Can't the LDS Church be open like this?

Post by mom3 » 30 Jan 2019, 22:08

Nonetheless, I would certainly expect a higher standard of behavior when things go wrong as He works through these imperfect humans.
Me, too, once upon a time.

Not now.

I appreciate some of the good things our church can do and does. It's now on par with all the other organizations and religions I know of. General average across the board.

I do hear you. Even as I have pushed back on the conversation.
"I stayed because it was God and Jesus Christ that I wanted to follow and be like, not individual human beings." Chieko Okazaki Dialogue interview

"I am coming to envision a new persona for the Church as humble followers of Jesus Christ....Joseph and his early followers came forth with lots of triumphalist rhetoric, but I think we need a new voice, one of humility, friendship and service. We should teach people to believe in God because it will soften their hearts and make them more willing to serve." - Richard Bushman

User avatar
SamBee
Posts: 5341
Joined: 14 Mar 2010, 04:55

Re: Why Can't the LDS Church be open like this?

Post by SamBee » 31 Jan 2019, 02:47

I believe one of the biggest problems the RCs have is that their clergy aren't allowed to marry. About a third of priests leave the vocation to get married to women, and obviously a notable proportion are gay... But I can't help thinking this creates sexual frustration and deviant forms of sexuality in the long run.

The LDS has had sex abuse, but I believe it lacks this key problem so it has had less of it.
DASH1730 "An Area Authority...[was] asked...who...would go to the Telestial kingdom. His answer: "murderers, adulterers and a lot of surprised Mormons!"'
1ST PRES 1978 "[LDS] believe...there is truth in many religions and philosophies...good and great religious leaders... have raised the spiritual, moral, and ethical awareness of their people. When we speak of The [LDS] as the only true church...it is...authorized to administer the ordinances...by Jesus Christ... we do not mean... it is the only teacher of truth."

User avatar
Katzpur
Posts: 355
Joined: 26 Jul 2009, 08:40
Location: Salt Lake City

Re: Why Can't the LDS Church be open like this?

Post by Katzpur » 10 Feb 2019, 18:37

SamBee wrote:
28 Jan 2019, 05:02
dande48 wrote:
27 Jan 2019, 08:57
I see the Catholic Church having many similarities with the LDS Church, but on a much grander scale.
The Roman Catholic church's problems make those of the LDS look like a drop in the ocean.
Right, but the Catholic Church's membership also makes the LDS Church's membership seem like a drop in the ocean. Naturally, where there are larger numbers of people, there are going to be more of them committing horrible abuses.
"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. If you try it, you will be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." ~Rudyard Kipling ~

Post Reply