Why Can't the LDS Church be open like this?

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SilentDawning
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Why Can't the LDS Church be open like this?

Post by SilentDawning » 27 Jan 2019, 07:36

Here is a statement from Pope Francis about how the church is wounded by its own sin...why can't our church openly admit its failings in this way? Sure, we can hide essays in remote corners of our website or have a free minded GA like Uchdorft make a blanket, non-specific statement, but why can't we do what any pure-hearted creature would do, and openly ADMIT and apologize for our failings, even if it reflects badly on leaders?

https://www.yahoo.com/news/pope-says-we ... 18627.html

Such an admission would only help people like myself and others heal. Faithful members would likely embrace the statement with some form of rationalization and continue to stay. Maybe some would leave, but others would stay as a result. And in the process, the church gets kudos for doing what any "righteous" organization would do -- admit its failing, apologize, and then do better.
"It doesn't have to be about the Church (church) all the time!" -- SD

"Stage 5 is where you no longer believe the gospel as its literally or traditionally taught. Nonetheless, you find your own way to be active and at peace within it". -- SD

The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."

My introduction: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1576

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dande48
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Re: Why Can't the LDS Church be open like this?

Post by dande48 » 27 Jan 2019, 08:57

I see the Catholic Church having many similarities with the LDS Church, but on a much grander scale. Both lay claim to Jesus' authority, passed on by the laying on of hands. And both have historically considered any scrutiny to be heretical sacrilige. And I don't think the LDS Church would've acted any differently if placed in the same position. With the Catholic Church, the sex abuse got to be too much of a problem, and too much coverage to sweep under the rug. Plus, Pope Francis seems to be a little more like David O McKay than President Nelson.

Of course, historically both organizations have been plenty worse than they are presently, and neither organization is willing to be fully open about those past "sins". The Catholic church has been worse... but we would've been too, given the opportunity. We just didn't have the money to build up a theocratic nation, the resources to launch a crusade to fulfill our "oath of vengence", or the legal power to enact "blood atonement" into law. Power corresponds exponentially with how evil you can be, and the LDS Church never had that kind of power. I hope we never do. But for now, our sins are much easier to sweep under the rug and ignore.
"The whole world is a comedy to those that think, a tragedy to those that feel." - Horace Walpole

"Even though there are no ways of knowing for sure, there are ways of knowing for pretty sure."
-Lemony Snicket

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SamBee
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Re: Why Can't the LDS Church be open like this?

Post by SamBee » 28 Jan 2019, 04:59

The LDS has never suffered from anything as catastrophic as the abuse revelations. It's been huge for them. It has turned Ireland from.being a largely Catholic country into a secular one within a generation or two.

I think the RC church has handled the issue appallingly. It would be difficult to stamp out child abuse entirely, but if and when it happens, measures could be taken. The RC Church has:

* Failed to address the needs of those who were abused.
* Covered it up repeatedly.
* Failed to introduce adequate safeguards.
* Put abusers back into circulation, resulting in more abuse.
* Not punished the abusers properly.
* Created an environment in which abuse flourishes.
* Not allowed clergy to marry which is partly responsible for this and other problems.
* Maintained odd attitudes to sexuality which have also played a part.

In fact, they are a textbook example of how not to deal with this issue. I am glad that the Pope is making these statements, but the damage has been done.

I would go so far as to say that if Satan wished to destroy Christianity, he would do so most effectively by destroying it from within. I believe free agency was responsible on the part of the abusers, and it is on their heads but that darker forces are at play.
DASH1730 "An Area Authority...[was] asked...who...would go to the Telestial kingdom. His answer: "murderers, adulterers and a lot of surprised Mormons!"'
1ST PRES 1978 "[LDS] believe...there is truth in many religions and philosophies...good and great religious leaders... have raised the spiritual, moral, and ethical awareness of their people. When we speak of The [LDS] as the only true church...it is...authorized to administer the ordinances...by Jesus Christ... we do not mean... it is the only teacher of truth."

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SamBee
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Re: Why Can't the LDS Church be open like this?

Post by SamBee » 28 Jan 2019, 05:02

dande48 wrote:
27 Jan 2019, 08:57
I see the Catholic Church having many similarities with the LDS Church, but on a much grander scale.
The Roman Catholic church's problems make those of the LDS look like a drop in the ocean.
DASH1730 "An Area Authority...[was] asked...who...would go to the Telestial kingdom. His answer: "murderers, adulterers and a lot of surprised Mormons!"'
1ST PRES 1978 "[LDS] believe...there is truth in many religions and philosophies...good and great religious leaders... have raised the spiritual, moral, and ethical awareness of their people. When we speak of The [LDS] as the only true church...it is...authorized to administer the ordinances...by Jesus Christ... we do not mean... it is the only teacher of truth."

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nibbler
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Re: Why Can't the LDS Church be open like this?

Post by nibbler » 28 Jan 2019, 17:06

Why Can't the LDS Church be open like this?

In one word? Fear.
Competence, like truth, beauty, and contact lenses, is in the eye of the beholder.
— Laurence J. Peter

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SilentDawning
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Re: Why Can't the LDS Church be open like this?

Post by SilentDawning » 28 Jan 2019, 21:22

The part I learn from this is that the "wrongs" have to be widely known and shouted from the rooftops for the establishment to acknowledge them at some level. That's not my role or my purpose in life (unlike other activist types in the church, who normally get excommunicated if they get a following or too vocal). But the allegations of abuse in the Catholic church are widespread and widely known, with, I think some payment and tons and tons of witnesses.
"It doesn't have to be about the Church (church) all the time!" -- SD

"Stage 5 is where you no longer believe the gospel as its literally or traditionally taught. Nonetheless, you find your own way to be active and at peace within it". -- SD

The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."

My introduction: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1576

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mom3
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Re: Why Can't the LDS Church be open like this?

Post by mom3 » 28 Jan 2019, 22:31

I also think if the pressure to own up to our history had come from outside the church, instead of inside, it may have gotten a different response.

Like Dande pointed out, both churches (all churches) aren't totally up front about their histories either. Just read Mother Teresa's Letters. She got no support for her mission to India. Total silence. That wasn't even a scandalous problem.

We are also still a teen church. They are ancient compared to us. Look how long it took them to get a liberal Pope who would address the issue.

Our church's biggest mistake was inciting testimonies based on history. Though they haven't been as transparent as I like that I have, in the lifetime of the problem, taken some steps. As big as I would like? No. Part of that is because they never had their shelf fall down. It's like telling a cancer patient to eat more vegetables.
"I stayed because it was God and Jesus Christ that I wanted to follow and be like, not individual human beings." Chieko Okazaki Dialogue interview

"I am coming to envision a new persona for the Church as humble followers of Jesus Christ....Joseph and his early followers came forth with lots of triumphalist rhetoric, but I think we need a new voice, one of humility, friendship and service. We should teach people to believe in God because it will soften their hearts and make them more willing to serve." - Richard Bushman

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dande48
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Re: Why Can't the LDS Church be open like this?

Post by dande48 » 28 Jan 2019, 23:13

SilentDawning wrote:
28 Jan 2019, 21:22
The part I learn from this is that the "wrongs" have to be widely known and shouted from the rooftops for the establishment to acknowledge them at some level.
The truth is, we're small fish. I think most people think of the LDS Church, the way most members of the Church think about the Jehovah's Witnesses. They might know one or two, and think all-in-all they are pretty nice people. If they are bored, they might do a quick google search and find out more about our dirty laundry than most members. They feel we have some pretty weird beliefs, and it's obvious to them our Church is false... and that's where it stops. They don't really care, or even think of us that much.

We've got 1% the membership as the Catholic Church, and we're stagnating. While we do have stupidly deep pockets for our membership numbers, we just don't have the same reach, power, or influence as the Catholic Empire. Things would have to disasterously bad for anyone to pay us mind. Consider the FLDS Church; Much worse on many levels. But they are so tiny, we rarely waste the effort thinking about them.
"The whole world is a comedy to those that think, a tragedy to those that feel." - Horace Walpole

"Even though there are no ways of knowing for sure, there are ways of knowing for pretty sure."
-Lemony Snicket

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dande48
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Re: Why Can't the LDS Church be open like this?

Post by dande48 » 29 Jan 2019, 08:30

One other reason I thought of: The Catholic Church has really lightened up on the required commitment and expectations of its membership. It seems to be a lot easier to be only "half-in" with Catholicism. You can be a "Christmas and Easter" Catholic, pretty easily. There are no "belief requirements". Its much easier to be Catholic, not because you believe, but because its important to your family. Tithing in Catholicism is VERY open to interpretation, and is basically "provide support to the Church, if you are able to do so", with no percentage given. Also, it is VERY difficult to get excommunicated these days from the Catholic Church.

In contrast, we have our "testimony competitions". We're required to profess belief and adhere to pretty strict rules in order to participate in most any ritual or ordinance. Our membership is asked to work for many hours, often for free (unless you're in the top leadership). We're required to give 10% of our tithe, and a generous fast offering. And "correctness of belief" is a HUGE deal. As a result, our active membership is much smaller but a LOT more devote. The FLDS Church is much smaller than we are, but also much more devoted. The Catholic Church is humongous, but also much less devoted and thereby a lot more willing to scrutinize.
"The whole world is a comedy to those that think, a tragedy to those that feel." - Horace Walpole

"Even though there are no ways of knowing for sure, there are ways of knowing for pretty sure."
-Lemony Snicket

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mom3
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Re: Why Can't the LDS Church be open like this?

Post by mom3 » 29 Jan 2019, 11:01

And adding to Dande's great list - This misconduct is sexual in nature. It's appalling in every way, shape, and form. If it was monetery misuse, or something else, it too might be open to interpretation.
"I stayed because it was God and Jesus Christ that I wanted to follow and be like, not individual human beings." Chieko Okazaki Dialogue interview

"I am coming to envision a new persona for the Church as humble followers of Jesus Christ....Joseph and his early followers came forth with lots of triumphalist rhetoric, but I think we need a new voice, one of humility, friendship and service. We should teach people to believe in God because it will soften their hearts and make them more willing to serve." - Richard Bushman

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