New Sunday Worship

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mom3
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New Sunday Worship

Post by mom3 » 15 Oct 2018, 09:17

I know I have been most crabby here recently. However, I do still look for good. The following is a huge good in my opinion. It's a bit of a read but I couldn't say it better than it is. Read it when you have time. It's about New Sacrament Meeting Guidelines.

https://bycommonconsent.com/2018/10/15/ ... p-service/
"I stayed because it was God and Jesus Christ that I wanted to follow and be like, not individual human beings." Chieko Okazaki Dialogue interview

"I am coming to envision a new persona for the Church as humble followers of Jesus Christ....Joseph and his early followers came forth with lots of triumphalist rhetoric, but I think we need a new voice, one of humility, friendship and service. We should teach people to believe in God because it will soften their hearts and make them more willing to serve." - Richard Bushman

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On Own Now
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Re: New Sunday Worship

Post by On Own Now » 15 Oct 2018, 13:57

I appreciated the direction from GC to minimize announcements in SM. So much of what we cover there is just minutiae. I'd like to think we will take this opportunity to have ONLY items that must be approved by the Ward (even knowing each ward will approve everything, with 100% of the 'vote').

My preference would be to have the Sacrament at the end, as the culminating event.

Talks? Well, the blog says, "I’ve even suggested a few times that every sacrament talk should be about the sacrament itself in some way, or at least about the atonement and the death and resurrection of Jesus." We have to be a bit careful here. I agree in principle, but if we followed this, it would be even more predictable than now. I mean, every other week, we'd be hearing someone start their talk with, "I've been asked to speak on the Sacrament." I think, instead, my approach would be to say that each talk should try make a clear tie back to discipleship, atonement, faith... something like that. However the talks are managed, they should clearly be reflected in the Sacrament; talk about how we can take another spiritual step as members of the Family of Christ, then we have the Sacrament to commit ourselves to him and to receive his spirit in us.

I do wonder if we will wind up squeezing out youth speakers and musical numbers with 14% less time in the meeting. My hope is that we have more music and simpler, more direct, less fluff adult talks.

One final thought. As my FT has continued to move, I've gotten away from the idea of a "worship service". To me, what is powerful about Christianity is our potential to become disciples and followers of Jesus' teachings. I think 'worship' can sometimes get a little too far down path of what amazing accolades we can give to Jesus for his abundant love; forgetting that Jesus didn't seem to do any of what he did in order to be praised.
"Let us therefore no longer pass judgment on one another, but resolve instead never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of another." --Romans 14:13

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SamBee
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Re: New Sunday Worship

Post by SamBee » 15 Oct 2018, 16:54

We really need announcements. Firstly most of our ward is transient, so needs constant reminders and secondly, it's the main way information gets about - particularly on events.
DASH1730 "An Area Authority...[was] asked...who...would go to the Telestial kingdom. His answer: "murderers, adulterers and a lot of surprised Mormons!"'
1ST PRES 1978 "[LDS] believe...there is truth in many religions and philosophies...good and great religious leaders... have raised the spiritual, moral, and ethical awareness of their people. When we speak of The [LDS] as the only true church...it is...authorized to administer the ordinances...by Jesus Christ... we do not mean... it is the only teacher of truth."

Curt Sunshine
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Re: New Sunday Worship

Post by Curt Sunshine » 16 Oct 2018, 09:34

Thank you for linking that post.

I hope we do this right.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

GBSmith
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Re: New Sunday Worship

Post by GBSmith » 16 Oct 2018, 10:44

On Own Now wrote:
15 Oct 2018, 13:57

My preference would be to have the Sacrament at the end, as the culminating event.
Agreed. Every Christian church service that I've ever attended places the eucharist/sacrament at the end. Having it first has always given me the impression of just getting it over with so we can get on to more important things.

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dande48
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Re: New Sunday Worship

Post by dande48 » 16 Oct 2018, 10:52

GBSmith wrote:
16 Oct 2018, 10:44
Having it first has always given me the impression of just getting it over with so we can get on to more important things.
But then most members wouldn't show up for the first 40 minutes of sacrament meeting! :lol:
"The whole world is a comedy to those that think, a tragedy to those that feel." - Horace Walpole

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GBSmith
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Re: New Sunday Worship

Post by GBSmith » 16 Oct 2018, 13:55

dande48 wrote:
16 Oct 2018, 10:52
GBSmith wrote:
16 Oct 2018, 10:44
Having it first has always given me the impression of just getting it over with so we can get on to more important things.
But then most members wouldn't show up for the first 40 minutes of sacrament meeting! :lol:
I think you'd be surprised. In the Episcopal church worship is divided into the liturgy of the word and liturgy of the table. The word is comprised of the lessons, readings from the psalms, OT, NT and finally the gospels followed by the sermon. Everything focuses to the eucharist as the high point of service finishing with the words "let us go forth to love and serve the Lord" or something similar. For a typical sacrament meeting you have to be spiritually ready and focused to get the most from the sacrament and then as often as not the following talks are a let down to one degree or another. I think we do it the way we do because that's the way we've always done it and I wish someone would actually look at the possibility of a change or at least giving wards the option.

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On Own Now
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Re: New Sunday Worship

Post by On Own Now » 16 Oct 2018, 14:21

dande48 wrote:
16 Oct 2018, 10:52
GBSmith wrote:
16 Oct 2018, 10:44
Having it first has always given me the impression of just getting it over with so we can get on to more important things.
But then most members wouldn't show up for the first 40 minutes of sacrament meeting! :lol:
dande, I laughed and enjoyed your comment. It did make me think a bit. I think part of our problem is that SM today has a kind of "soft opening". We start with a hymn, a prayer, a bunch of ward business that might take from a few minutes up to several minutes. This is all kind of lesser in the overall scheme. In a way, the meat of the meeting kicks off with the sacrament hymn. I think, in a certain way, this has conditioned us to be less concerned about being a few minutes late. I know that in my own mind, I think of trying to be on time first, but being there before/during the Sacrament hymn as a close second. If that's not possible, then getting there sometime during the sacrament is OK as I can easily sneak in (along with the others) at the conclusion of the sacrament, and be there for the rest of the meeting.

If instead, we had a a hymn/prayer to start, followed by very brief ward business (<2 minutes) and then went on to the first of a series of talks leading up to the sacrament hymn/sacrament at about the 40-minute mark, I don't think there would be the obvious breaks or a sense of a soft opening the same way we have today. Maybe I'm just an unabashed optimist, though.
"Let us therefore no longer pass judgment on one another, but resolve instead never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of another." --Romans 14:13

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DarkJedi
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Re: New Sunday Worship

Post by DarkJedi » 16 Oct 2018, 15:38

SamBee wrote:
15 Oct 2018, 16:54
We really need announcements. Firstly most of our ward is transient, so needs constant reminders and secondly, it's the main way information gets about - particularly on events.
I am actually in the camp of no or very few (read almost no) announcements. The point was made by Elder Cook that announcements can be effectively handled via a program or, for those of us who have kept up with the 21st Century, email or text. I do understand not everyone can access text or email, I think the Q15 does also - hence they mentioned the program as an option.

I'd rather we eliminate business in the beginning, too. Do it at the end or in the other meeting.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

My Introduction

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DarkJedi
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Re: New Sunday Worship

Post by DarkJedi » 16 Oct 2018, 15:42

GBSmith wrote:
16 Oct 2018, 10:44
On Own Now wrote:
15 Oct 2018, 13:57

My preference would be to have the Sacrament at the end, as the culminating event.
Agreed. Every Christian church service that I've ever attended places the eucharist/sacrament at the end. Having it first has always given me the impression of just getting it over with so we can get on to more important things.
I can't say the majority of other churches I have been to do it at the end, but usually more in the middle. That, however, is their culture. Not that we can't change our culture but baby steps are important. Maybe sacrament last is a future change.

Nevertheless, I like sacrament first if only because many times the talks are less than uplifting. It would be harder for me to focus on the sacrament in a meeting where I was already biting my tongue about a talk or just plain wishing I could leave (or maybe did leave).
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

My Introduction

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