The Church to match box office sales ...

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DarkJedi
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Re: The Church to match box office sales ...

Post by DarkJedi » 12 Oct 2018, 09:10

dande48 wrote:
12 Oct 2018, 09:00
It might be "repentance", but it's a different brand of repentance than they teach over the pulpit. It's like when a man becomes afraid his wife is going to find out about an affair from a few years prior. He brings her flowers, does the dishes, and steps up his "husband" game, so she won't believe it. Yes, he's resolving to be a better husband. Yes, he's doing good. Yes, he's looking forward, leaving the past behind, and the incident probably won't happen again. And maybe he doesn't want his wife to believe it, partly out of concern for her emotional well-being.

But he still did a scummy thing, and doesn't deserve to be trusted.
None of us can pay the price no matter what we do. None of us even deserve to be forgiven. Fortunately our loving Heavenly Parents foresaw this would be the case and provided a way for the price to be paid, no matter how we incur the debt or how big the debt is. Every single recorded instance we have in the NT where someone asked Jesus for forgiveness, he immediately and freely forgave. Not only that, he forgave those who didn't ask (think of the woman caught in adultery). Repentance isn't necessarily about actual change, but is about trying to change and being willing to change. And you're absolutely right, that is not always the message we hear from the pulpit - but we do hear it from those who really understand what grace is.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

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On Own Now
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Re: The Church to match box office sales ...

Post by On Own Now » 12 Oct 2018, 10:00

Some thoughts:

- The Church donated all proceeds from the film "Meet the Mormons" to the American Red Cross.

- I don't believe the Church or its populace were a racist lot during the time of JS. All evidence I can find points toward this as a later development. In fact, a large part of the conflict in Missouri was over the Church integrating with free black people and being viewed as abolitionists. For example, after the Mormons were expelled by threat from Jackson County, the citizens of Clay county let them come there to stay temporarily, recognizing that they were refugees. But a couple years later, they were starting to get tired of the continued presence and officially requested Mormons to move on. Their rationale listed three grievances: Mormons were Northerners, they were opposed to slavery, and they taught that Native Americans were a chosen people. Those Jerks! How dare they!

- Most people who will see this film are members of the Church. They need to be taught that Mormonism is opposed to racism, and if that hasn't already gotten through, then no doubt this film will help spread the word.

- The Church has made terrible mistakes in the past. It is trying to do right now and has been for awhile. If we can't separate out past failures from present successes, then we'll never be at peace with the Church.
"Let us therefore no longer pass judgment on one another, but resolve instead never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of another." --Romans 14:13

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dande48
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Re: The Church to match box office sales ...

Post by dande48 » 12 Oct 2018, 11:27

On Own Now wrote:
12 Oct 2018, 10:00
In fact, a large part of the conflict in Missouri was over the Church integrating with free black people and being viewed as abolitionists.
We say that. We put it into our movies. But I don't think that's really the case. Joseph Smith ran on a platform which included gradually abolishing slavery over a 50 year period, and compensating slave owners, but that was about it. But Joseph Smith was pretty racist, and was definitely not an abolitionist, and made it very clear dark skin is a curse.
Joseph Smith wrote:[Slavery] remains as a lasting monument of the decree of Jehovah, to the shame and confusion of all who have cried out against the South, in consequence of their holding the sons of Ham in servitude.
Joseph Smith wrote:'Are the Mormons abolitionists?' No, unless delivering the people from priestcraft, and the priests from the power of Satan, should be considered abolition. But we do not believe in setting the negroes free.
I think the whole conflict in Missouri had more to do with polygamy.
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Roy
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Re: The Church to match box office sales ...

Post by Roy » 12 Oct 2018, 16:26

https://www.sltrib.com/opinion/commenta ... on-go-see/

Wow! This article makes great points about the movie being very pro-women.
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Reuben
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Re: The Church to match box office sales ...

Post by Reuben » 12 Oct 2018, 19:39

DarkJedi wrote:
12 Oct 2018, 09:10
dande48 wrote:
12 Oct 2018, 09:00
It might be "repentance", but it's a different brand of repentance than they teach over the pulpit. It's like when a man becomes afraid his wife is going to find out about an affair from a few years prior. He brings her flowers, does the dishes, and steps up his "husband" game, so she won't believe it. Yes, he's resolving to be a better husband. Yes, he's doing good. Yes, he's looking forward, leaving the past behind, and the incident probably won't happen again. And maybe he doesn't want his wife to believe it, partly out of concern for her emotional well-being.

But he still did a scummy thing, and doesn't deserve to be trusted.
None of us can pay the price no matter what we do. None of us even deserve to be forgiven. Fortunately our loving Heavenly Parents foresaw this would be the case and provided a way for the price to be paid, no matter how we incur the debt or how big the debt is. Every single recorded instance we have in the NT where someone asked Jesus for forgiveness, he immediately and freely forgave. Not only that, he forgave those who didn't ask (think of the woman caught in adultery). Repentance isn't necessarily about actual change, but is about trying to change and being willing to change. And you're absolutely right, that is not always the message we hear from the pulpit - but we do hear it from those who really understand what grace is.
Forgiveness is great. I'm sure the church and its leaders will obtain it.

But dande is talking about the part of repentance where the offending party works to reconcile with the injured party. That part is about restoring trust. That's the part the church never does.

As a result, trust is rarely restored. Instead, the church changes for the better without trying to reconcile on any reasonable terms. ("Trust us because the prophet can't lead the church astray" and "if you don't trust us you're deceived by Satan" don't count.) At best, it doesn't injure anyone in the same way again, and achieves reconciliation by default when the injured party and the leaders responsible die. But before then, because there's no admission of wrongdoing and a general belief in the church's effective infallibility, the injured party shoulders the burden of other members' blame for daring to want to be treated with basic dignity. Or worse, they come to believe that they were wrong to do so, and "repent" of it.

It seems to take the church over 40 years to fully repent, in the sense that there are very few people left to reconcile with. I have to admit, if I knew I would live for centuries and I thought so much of myself that admitting wrongdoing felt like the icy hand of death or the jaws of hell, I would probably repent the same way.

It's been 40 years now since the priesthood and temple ban was lifted. We're seeing the church repent. Praise is in order, but it's really hard to praise a narcissist who has hurt you, doesn't intend to reconcile with you, and has your family and friends wrapped around his little finger.

FWIW, I think the matching thing is great, and might even be brilliant.
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SamBee
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Re: The Church to match box office sales ...

Post by SamBee » 12 Oct 2018, 19:50

NAACP is the safe, middle class face of black activism. Maybe we need to get a Spike Lee film about Eldridge Cleaver, ex-Black Panther and call it "Black Mormon". :lol:

Actually a doc about him, including the LDS content would be good... along the lines of New York Doll which was sweet.
DASH1730 "An Area Authority...[was] asked...who...would go to the Telestial kingdom. His answer: "murderers, adulterers and a lot of surprised Mormons!"'
1ST PRES 1978 "[LDS] believe...there is truth in many religions and philosophies...good and great religious leaders... have raised the spiritual, moral, and ethical awareness of their people. When we speak of The [LDS] as the only true church...it is...authorized to administer the ordinances...by Jesus Christ... we do not mean... it is the only teacher of truth."

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SamBee
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Re: The Church to match box office sales ...

Post by SamBee » 12 Oct 2018, 19:59

FWIW, the church made a pretty solid statement in the aftermath of Charlottesville.

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=8380&p=117752
DASH1730 "An Area Authority...[was] asked...who...would go to the Telestial kingdom. His answer: "murderers, adulterers and a lot of surprised Mormons!"'
1ST PRES 1978 "[LDS] believe...there is truth in many religions and philosophies...good and great religious leaders... have raised the spiritual, moral, and ethical awareness of their people. When we speak of The [LDS] as the only true church...it is...authorized to administer the ordinances...by Jesus Christ... we do not mean... it is the only teacher of truth."

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Re: The Church to match box office sales ...

Post by Curt Sunshine » 12 Oct 2018, 23:00

"Doesn't intend to reconcile with you."
We are talking about race - specifically black people. What is your evidence that the Church does not intend to reconcile with black people?
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

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DarkJedi
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Re: The Church to match box office sales ...

Post by DarkJedi » 13 Oct 2018, 05:46

Reuben wrote:
12 Oct 2018, 19:39
DarkJedi wrote:
12 Oct 2018, 09:10
dande48 wrote:
12 Oct 2018, 09:00
It might be "repentance", but it's a different brand of repentance than they teach over the pulpit. It's like when a man becomes afraid his wife is going to find out about an affair from a few years prior. He brings her flowers, does the dishes, and steps up his "husband" game, so she won't believe it. Yes, he's resolving to be a better husband. Yes, he's doing good. Yes, he's looking forward, leaving the past behind, and the incident probably won't happen again. And maybe he doesn't want his wife to believe it, partly out of concern for her emotional well-being.

But he still did a scummy thing, and doesn't deserve to be trusted.
None of us can pay the price no matter what we do. None of us even deserve to be forgiven. Fortunately our loving Heavenly Parents foresaw this would be the case and provided a way for the price to be paid, no matter how we incur the debt or how big the debt is. Every single recorded instance we have in the NT where someone asked Jesus for forgiveness, he immediately and freely forgave. Not only that, he forgave those who didn't ask (think of the woman caught in adultery). Repentance isn't necessarily about actual change, but is about trying to change and being willing to change. And you're absolutely right, that is not always the message we hear from the pulpit - but we do hear it from those who really understand what grace is.
Forgiveness is great. I'm sure the church and its leaders will obtain it.

But dande is talking about the part of repentance where the offending party works to reconcile with the injured party. That part is about restoring trust. That's the part the church never does.
There is a difference between repentance and forgiveness. Repentance (changing) is something we do. Forgiveness from God is something the repentant hopes to get. Forgiveness from others is much more elusive because humans are going to be human. Going back to using the NT as reference on the topic. There is no evidence that any of the people who asked (or didn't ask) and were forgiven by Jesus made any efforts at reconciliation with their fellow humans - it's a separate thing. I'm not going to preach a sermon about forgiving being necessary to be forgiven, although Jesus did state that. It's something I'm attempting to repent of (change in myself).

We have had the conversation here about the perceived need for the church to apologize, and I am actually in the camp that thinks the church should apologize. I also recognize that it will probably never happen. The church can change in fundamental ways without apologizing. If forgiven by God (and I'm not sure God forgives organizations, I do believe God forgives individuals), there is no need for an apology.

Former thread about the church and apology: viewtopic.php?f=9&t=7941
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

My Introduction

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SamBee
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Re: The Church to match box office sales ...

Post by SamBee » 13 Oct 2018, 10:15

The church has changed, but it won't face its past. That's the short version.
DASH1730 "An Area Authority...[was] asked...who...would go to the Telestial kingdom. His answer: "murderers, adulterers and a lot of surprised Mormons!"'
1ST PRES 1978 "[LDS] believe...there is truth in many religions and philosophies...good and great religious leaders... have raised the spiritual, moral, and ethical awareness of their people. When we speak of The [LDS] as the only true church...it is...authorized to administer the ordinances...by Jesus Christ... we do not mean... it is the only teacher of truth."

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