Those that leave the church.

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screwloose
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Joined: 22 Aug 2018, 17:51

Those that leave the church.

Post by screwloose »

We know this married couple. Both return missionarys. Both life long members of the church. Very good people. Recently they walked away from the church and used their life savings to buy a Lamborghini. Said they had some disagreement with joseph Smith's teachings. I think it was the multiple wives thing. They threw away everything for worldly crap that doesnt matter. We couldn't believe it! Satan got to them, turned them away. If it can happen to these people this easily, it could happen to us too. Stay on the path of light, never give in. Things of the world are cool but have little value. Eternity is the prize I'm striving for, even if I wait for it all my mortal years.
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Heber13
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Re: Those that leave the church.

Post by Heber13 »

screwloose wrote: 07 Oct 2018, 09:14 Satan got to them, turned them away.
I completely reject this idea.

If they are having a happy life, good for them.

Faith in the church and happiness and Lamborghinis are all independent of each other.

Each person can walk a path that leads to growth and peace and happiness. There is no judgment necessary for those who do life different from us.

We must learn to love others and accept their differences.
Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."
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DarkJedi
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Re: Those that leave the church.

Post by DarkJedi »

I've known many people who have left the church. There are a variety of reasons and as Pres. Uchtdorf asserted, it is not that simple. I also reject Satan as the cause. Satan gets lots of credit for stuff the natural man does all by himself with no need of supernatural help of any kind. It is not our place to judge those who leave the church it is our job to love our neighbor.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

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dande48
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Re: Those that leave the church.

Post by dande48 »

screwloose wrote: 07 Oct 2018, 09:14 Satan got to them, turned them away.
I 100% disagree with this too. There are lots of reasons people become disaffected with the Church, and Satan has almost nothing to do with it.

We are the one's who give value to our lives. What might seem trivial to some, easily made fun of and silly, might be of the utmost importance to others. And why would someone be happy in the eternities, if they can't learn to be happy here and now?
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Old-Timer
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Re: Those that leave the church.

Post by Old-Timer »

Different views are fine here, including orthodox ones, but we try hard here not to insult or condemn people for choosing to live differently than we do. The Golden Rule and all that Jazz applies to those who leave, and it applies to those who stay.

Following that guideline isn't easy, and we fail at it here sometimes, but we try. That is important to us.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

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Dkormond
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Re: Those that leave the church.

Post by Dkormond »

Old Timer wrote:Different views are fine here, including orthodox ones, but we try hard here not to insult or condemn people for choosing to live differently than we do. The Golden Rule and all that Jazz applies to those who leave, and it applies to those who stay.

Following that guideline isn't easy, and we fail at it here sometimes, but we try. That is important to us.

I guess I’m missing the connection between the Lambo and leaving the church. Did they spend money they would have otherwise spent on tithing? If so wow!! A new Aventador is about $400k, if that’s the case I seriously doubt that the Lamborghini had anything to do with leaving the church because that would place their income north of $4 mil. If that’s the case I seriously doubt satan made them buy it.

Last do you seriously think that they have rejected God, or eternity? That is the exact belief that needs to be purged from the church. We are saved by Grace not rejection of expensive cars. How do you know they have rejected Christ? How do you know what their path is? Why would you EVER think that because someone who leaves the church is lost? How do you know if they aren’t donating that money to stop sex trafficking, or stop world hunger? Holy cow this makes me fired up!!

If you only believe that active church members will be saved how many people will actually be in Heaven? Less than 0.01% of the worlds historical population have ever heard of the LDS church, and do you honestly believe that even if they accepted the gospel in the afterlife they won’t be responsible for the way they lived their lives?


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DarkJedi
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Re: Those that leave the church.

Post by DarkJedi »

Dkormond wrote: 07 Oct 2018, 13:35
Old Timer wrote:Different views are fine here, including orthodox ones, but we try hard here not to insult or condemn people for choosing to live differently than we do. The Golden Rule and all that Jazz applies to those who leave, and it applies to those who stay.

Following that guideline isn't easy, and we fail at it here sometimes, but we try. That is important to us.

I guess I’m missing the connection between the Lambo and leaving the church. Did they spend money they would have otherwise spent on tithing? If so wow!! A new Aventador is about $400k, if that’s the case I seriously doubt that the Lamborghini had anything to do with leaving the church because that would place their income north of $4 mil. If that’s the case I seriously doubt satan made them buy it.

Last do you seriously think that they have rejected God, or eternity? That is the exact belief that needs to be purged from the church. We are saved by Grace not rejection of expensive cars. How do you know they have rejected Christ? How do you know what their path is? Why would you EVER think that because someone who leaves the church is lost? How do you know if they aren’t donating that money to stop sex trafficking, or stop world hunger? Holy cow this makes me fired up!!

If you only believe that active church members will be saved how many people will actually be in Heaven? Less than 0.01% of the worlds historical population have ever heard of the LDS church, and do you honestly believe that even if they accepted the gospel in the afterlife they won’t be responsible for the way they lived their lives?


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It's not clear to me if this is meant to be a response to Curt because you quote him but knowing Curt the response is way out of line with what he believes. If it's meant as a response to another post you should quote that post.

That said, it appears a moderator note may be in order so here it is: Curt is absolutely right. The moderator team works very hard to keep our forum one of civil respect. Differing opinions are a welcome and necessary part of what happens here, even if those differing opinions are very orthodox and/or differ greatly from our own. What is not welcome is direct attacks on individuals and their personal beliefs or perspectives. We can disagree here without being disagreeable. Please be respectful of others.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

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SamBee
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Re: Those that leave the church.

Post by SamBee »

Less than 0.01% of the worlds historical population have ever heard of the LDS church, and do you honestly believe that even if they accepted the gospel in the afterlife they won’t be responsible for the way they lived their lives?
Quite a few people have heard of the Mormons (sic), or seen the missionaries about... but I doubt most have had any sustained contact. I regularly see the missionaires about in the city I live... practically everyone I know is aware of them but knows very little about their beliefs. For many we're linked up with the JWs because we turn up at their doors.
DASH1730 "An Area Authority...[was] asked...who...would go to the Telestial kingdom. His answer: "murderers, adulterers and a lot of surprised Mormons!"'
1ST PRES 1978 "[LDS] believe...there is truth in many religions and philosophies...good and great religious leaders... have raised the spiritual, moral, and ethical awareness of their people. When we speak of The [LDS] as the only true church...it is...authorized to administer the ordinances...by Jesus Christ... we do not mean... it is the only teacher of truth."
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SilentDawning
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Re: Those that leave the church.

Post by SilentDawning »

I also reject the idea that "Satan got them".

In my own journey, the textbook church path was a path to misery for me in so many ways. At one point, the misery factor outstripped the happiness factor, and so, I made adjustments. Now I am happier than I ever was when it comes to my life in general. And that is the object and design of our existence isn't it -- happiness?

I really don't blame these people for having issues with Joseph Smith either. There was a lot of WEIRD STUFF in the beginning that would alienate the average person time and time and time again. And it does.

I also think it's judgmental to say that part of their apostasy was buying a Lamborgini (don't mind my spelling). There is nothing wrong with enjoying possessions in my view. Now, if they went into major hock and risked their financial security, it might be considered an unwise financial decision, but that is none of my business.

And last of all, some of us has suffered much in the church -- leadership abuse, nasty people, being left high and dry on mission critical issues within the power of the church to give support. You name it. The Church, like all organizations, has massive failures at certain times, and members are sometimes casualties in that situation. I think my own situation falls into that category. When believing members here my story, they say "I'm surprised you still attend" -- and their reaction is not in response to any attitudes I show (I try not to show any attitude, just share facts), their reaction is to the facts of my story.

So, to blame the member, to blame it on Satan getting them, isn't always part of my playbook. Putting full onus on the member every time is, for me, yet another example of the church avoiding responsibilty for its own actions and the natural consequences thereof. Not sure what pushed these people over the edge, but the church is so unsafe for people who have concerns about it, it wouldn't surprise me if their issues go deeper than simply the weirdness of Joseph Smith.
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Roy
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Re: Those that leave the church.

Post by Roy »

As I am wont to do, I will talk about myself. ;)

I am perhaps one of the most frugal people you have ever met. I have never bought a new car or even a used car from a dealership. I always buy from individual owners on the secondary market and pay cash.
I have found justification for my frugality in church teachings of provident living and self-reliance. I do not know that the church made me frugal but it certainly helped me to feel good about being frugal!
If I were to ever leave the church I do not believe my frugality would change. I crave the stability, security, and options that a nest egg can provide.

I can only speculate why anyone else would buy a lamborgini under any circumstances (What a terrible investment!). My most charitable attempt would be that they felt disillusioned with church promises and preparing for a future that may never come. Maybe they felt like living in the now. Some people that I quiet admire have sold everything to pursue their dreams to travel and/or help other people in far flung locations. That is another way to live in the now. Living in the now is a skill that I struggle to incorporate. Frugality and spending can both be virtues or vices depending on the extremes to which they are taken.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

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