Secular Knowledge

Public forum for topics that don't fit into the other categories.
Dkormond
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Secular Knowledge

Post by Dkormond »

After listening to, yet another, secular knowledge diatribe by Dallin Oakes I have to speak my mind. The level of frustration I have over this topic is beyond explanation.

Church leaders have repeatedly demonstrated that their knowledge isn’t necessarily “the truth,” and “Secular” knowledge has spread further light on the subject. As examples prohibition of the priesthood to people of African descent, and calling all Native Americans Lamanites has been a huge revelation to church leaders that their “inspiration” was not so inspired. I honestly have greater respect for people like Galileo, Copernicus, and Martin Luther.

I would love to send them a letter, but that is discouraged, so this is my sounding board. Guess what? The methodology to discover truth identified by “secular” methods is the actual way to find truth, because what is taught by our church leaders is rarely inspired, it’s “their belief,” and God unfortunately is rarely involved.


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Heber13
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Re: Secular Knowledge

Post by Heber13 »

I share your frustration.

I usually eye roll and think they are doing their thing where they say their thing from their point of view but you just take it with a grain of salt and say to yourself...."I simply disagree."

I usually feel the same also when they talk about the evil world...when all I can think is how much better life is for us now that 100 years, 200 years, 2000 years.... simply...we have progressed. We should not pretend the evil outweighs the good.

But they are telling stories...they preach.

I would say science has it's limitations too...and in the religious speakers are in their realm focusing in feelings and spiritual lessons, not literal truths. So, I get what they are saying and I have to ignore them at times, but sometimes it just a bit much to me also and I just can't respect things they say with superlatives. They lose credibility to me when they talk about it in shallow ways.

Have you ever read Bennion's book...."Religion and the Pursuit of Truth"?
Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."
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DarkJedi
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Re: Secular Knowledge

Post by DarkJedi »

I share your frustration as well, and tuned Oaks out fairly soon after he started because it was obvious where he was going. Actually I think the whole afternoon session except Uchtdorf beat the strict obedience and follow the prophet drum. I had to walk out of the room more than once.

I'm currently reading Terryl Givens' People of Paradox. This whole idea of the glory of God being intelligence yet there's clear opposition to intellectuals is one of the major paradoxes. It's been an interesting read (if you like to read intellectual stuff 8-) ).
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

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dande48
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Re: Secular Knowledge

Post by dande48 »

I feel the same. Think of what life would be like, if everyone accepted everything that was taught as religious doctrine? We'd still blame evil spirits for disease, hold to the "divine right" of kings, believe that certain races and heritages are superior to others... What's worse, are many of the truths taught us by secular knowledge are directly opposed by religious authority, and cause many people to error, like with the age of the earth or biological evolution.

The difference between science and religion, is that science rejoices when they are proven wrong. Science seeks to be proven wrong, so that our light and knowledge can be expanded.
"The whole world is a comedy to those that think, a tragedy to those that feel." - Horace Walpole

"Even though there are no ways of knowing for sure, there are ways of knowing for pretty sure."
-Lemony Snicket
Codependent
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Re: Secular Knowledge

Post by Codependent »

I will at some point formally introduce myself. For now I just wonder about Oaks and his preaching against worldly knowledge and alternate voices and whether his refrain in this direction is some kind of penance for being on the board of Dialogue, A Journal of Mormon Thought (might have the name wrong) back in the 60's. It seems to be a topic he comes back to often.
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DarkJedi
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Re: Secular Knowledge

Post by DarkJedi »

Codependent wrote: 06 Oct 2018, 22:17 I will at some point formally introduce myself. For now I just wonder about Oaks and his preaching against worldly knowledge and alternate voices and whether his refrain in this direction is some kind of penance for being on the board of Dialogue, A Journal of Mormon Thought (might have the name wrong) back in the 60's. It seems to be a topic he comes back to often.
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I don't know. In his book People of Paradox Givens discusses this particular paradox at length and includes specific individuals on one side or the other. He does mention Oaks and his involvement with Dialogue and he mentions reforms Oaks made at BYU. At that point Oaks was one of the "good guys." But that is an embodiment of the paradox itself - the president of a university and former lawyer and judge has something against intellectualism? How the heck can that even be? Hence, we are a people of paradox.

I suppose I had never looked at his beating this drum as penance. It is possible. But he also came into the Q12 at a time when it was filled with ultra-conservatives (according to Givens as the result of J. Reuben Clark's efforts). He and a few others (including Nelson and Ballard) are the remnants of that era.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

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Old-Timer
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Re: Secular Knowledge

Post by Old-Timer »

I love secular knowledge and religious faith.

Both/and, not either/or.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken
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DarkJedi
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Re: Secular Knowledge

Post by DarkJedi »

Old Timer wrote: 07 Oct 2018, 11:48 I love secular knowledge and religious faith.

Both/and, not either/or.
And I think that's the issue being discussed here Curt. You and I can comprehend and embrace the both/and - but it sounds like Elder Oaks was talking either/or. This is only my perception, but I think in the church, at least among the orthodox, there's far more either/or than both/and. However, among our younger generations there are far more both/ands. Talks like this one by Oaks only seem to alienate those people more than they already seem to feel alienated.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

My Introduction
Old-Timer
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Re: Secular Knowledge

Post by Old-Timer »

Yep. I get that. Mine was a very shorthand attempt to say what you said.

Sorry if that wasn't clear. :D
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken
Dkormond
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Joined: 16 Oct 2017, 21:15

Secular Knowledge

Post by Dkormond »

Heber13 wrote:I share your frustration.

I usually eye roll and think they are doing their thing where they say their thing from their point of view but you just take it with a grain of salt and say to yourself...."I simply disagree."

I usually feel the same also when they talk about the evil world...when all I can think is how much better life is for us now that 100 years, 200 years, 2000 years.... simply...we have progressed. We should not pretend the evil outweighs the good.

But they are telling stories...they preach.

I would say science has it's limitations too...and in the religious speakers are in their realm focusing in feelings and spiritual lessons, not literal truths. So, I get what they are saying and I have to ignore them at times, but sometimes it just a bit much to me also and I just can't respect things they say with superlatives. They lose credibility to me when they talk about it in shallow ways.

Have you ever read Bennion's book...."Religion and the Pursuit of Truth"?
Have you ever heard of the work of Robert Lifton? He was a psychologist who embarked on an amazing journey. He interviewed people who had been imprisoned by the communists in China after they took over. He interviewed them upon release, usually to Hong Kong.

From his work he defined what a cult is. His definition burrows deal into my soul.

1.) Cults control information.
2.) Cult Leaders are chosen by God and considered infallible.
3.) Cults demand purity
4.) Cults demand confession of imagined sins.
5.)Cult doctrines are inflexible.
6.) Cults Load the language
7.) Cult doctrine trumps experience
8.) Cult doctrine trumps existence

I listen to these talks and I try and qualify what I see, what I experience, and what is revealed to me through the exploration of truth and I feel ignored.

BTW his book is called “Thought Reform and the Psychology of Totalism.”



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