Secular Knowledge

Public forum for topics that don't fit into the other categories.
Dkormond
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Re: Secular Knowledge

Post by Dkormond »

Old Timer wrote:Yep. I get that. Mine was a very shorthand attempt to say what you said.

Sorry if that wasn't clear. :D
You’re good.


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SilentDawning
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Re: Secular Knowledge

Post by SilentDawning »

Dkormond wrote: 06 Oct 2018, 14:40 After listening to, yet another, secular knowledge diatribe by Dallin Oakes I have to speak my mind. The level of frustration I have over this topic is beyond explanation.

Church leaders have repeatedly demonstrated that their knowledge isn’t necessarily “the truth,” and “Secular” knowledge has spread further light on the subject. As examples prohibition of the priesthood to people of African descent, and calling all Native Americans Lamanites has been a huge revelation to church leaders that their “inspiration” was not so inspired. I honestly have greater respect for people like Galileo, Copernicus, and Martin Luther.

I would love to send them a letter, but that is discouraged, so this is my sounding board. Guess what? The methodology to discover truth identified by “secular” methods is the actual way to find truth, because what is taught by our church leaders is rarely inspired, it’s “their belief,” and God unfortunately is rarely involved.


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This is my take on it -- when secular knowledge harmonizes with their opinions, or current doctrine, then it's an example of how how study and faith complement each other. When secular knowledge conflicts with their opinions, we have to be concerned about relying on the teachings of men rather than the inspired word -- using the term inspired loosely. As we have seen, it's not always inspired!!
"It doesn't have to be about the Church (church) all the time!" -- SD

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."

A man asked Jesus "do all roads lead to you?" Jesus responds,”most roads don’t lead anywhere, but I will travel any road to find you.” Adapted from The Shack, William Young

"The wise man has the power" -- adapted from What A Fool Believes -- The Doobie Brothers
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SamBee
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Re: Secular Knowledge

Post by SamBee »

Heber13 wrote: 06 Oct 2018, 15:42 I usually feel the same also when they talk about the evil world...when all I can think is how much better life is for us now that 100 years, 200 years, 2000 years.... simply...we have progressed. We should not pretend the evil outweighs the good.
But it does in many ways. We could not wipe ourselves out a century ago - at least not so quickly. We can carry out atrocities on an industrial scale that the conquistadors would have marveled at. We also have insane pollution visible all over the place, even within the bays of the Antarctic and at the bottom of the oceanic trenches.

Our societies is rapidly degenerating into dictatorship and surveillance. You can't go to most places now without being tracked or watched. Soon we won't even be able to spend money or post on the internet unless we are pre-approved by the authorities who will cut that off as soon as they get the chance.

When I look at the future, I fear for our children. Depression and loneliness are going through the roof. They or their children may enter a future where there are no jobs because the machines do them and no safety net for the unemployed.

We're still warring and massacring each other. Burma is one of the most recent examples. Within the recent past, Cambodia, Bosnia, Kosovo, Chechnya, Rwanda, the "disappeared" of Latin America...
DASH1730 "An Area Authority...[was] asked...who...would go to the Telestial kingdom. His answer: "murderers, adulterers and a lot of surprised Mormons!"'
1ST PRES 1978 "[LDS] believe...there is truth in many religions and philosophies...good and great religious leaders... have raised the spiritual, moral, and ethical awareness of their people. When we speak of The [LDS] as the only true church...it is...authorized to administer the ordinances...by Jesus Christ... we do not mean... it is the only teacher of truth."
Roy
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Re: Secular Knowledge

Post by Roy »

Have you ever read Bennion's book...."Religion and the Pursuit of Truth"?
I did! Lowell Bennion has a number of books with similar themes. I believe he was teaching institute classes at the time (60's or 70's) and his books seem geared towards young people leaving their parents homes and discovering in University information that contradicts their earlier religious understandings.

Bro. Bennion advises a degree of compartmentailisation and an effort to stay well rounded. Religion can be like music or art - he argues. Science has it's truths and science can provide many useful methods for descirbing and deconstructing a masterpiece - but at the core, a masterpiece is a masterpiece because of how it is felt by the human heart. So learn and become successful in secular pursuits but do not allow that portion of your life to completely smother the more spiritual side of art, music, and religion. Those too are needed for a "balanced" and well rounded life.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13
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Heber13
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Re: Secular Knowledge

Post by Heber13 »

Dkormond wrote: 07 Oct 2018, 12:44 From his work he defined what a cult is. His definition burrows deal into my soul.

1.) Cults control information.
2.) Cult Leaders are chosen by God and considered infallible.
3.) Cults demand purity
4.) Cults demand confession of imagined sins.
5.)Cult doctrines are inflexible.
6.) Cults Load the language
7.) Cult doctrine trumps experience
8.) Cult doctrine trumps existence
I think that is an interesting list. I have not read Robert Lifton, but that sounds interesting. I may have to check that out and put it on my list.

I read some chapters of People of Paradox but didn't get all the way through it. I felt i got the gist of what he was saying and i liked it. I want to revisit and finish that book too.

Regarding cults...I wonder how many religions are described by that list, and perhaps there is a sliding scale on some definitions of those things. I can see shades of it in the LDS church, but also not necessarily to unhealthy extremes. Because I'm a member of the church and don't feel manipulated beyond what I can control, it doesn't feel like a cult from where I stand. I choose what I do and don't do, what I believe and don't believe.

Perhaps some is semantics.

Perhaps to the cult list...I would say...it can definitely FEEL like there are shades of those manipulative tactics, but the church does not necessarily fit those definitions to an extreme, IMO. They are trying to influence behavior, not control it...but again...semantics...sliding scales...leadership roulette...individual experiences vary.

However, that isn't to dismiss those who feel it is too rigid in church, and too much emphasis placed on obeying leaders and too frustrating. It's just a sliding scale, I think, and varies by experience of the individual...and therefore can be managed by the individual and stay in the church or leave. There are options in the church. Not always easy, but they are there.
Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."
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Heber13
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Re: Secular Knowledge

Post by Heber13 »

Roy wrote: 08 Oct 2018, 08:43
Have you ever read Bennion's book...."Religion and the Pursuit of Truth"?
I did! Lowell Bennion has a number of books with similar themes. I believe he was teaching institute classes at the time (60's or 70's) and his books seem geared towards young people leaving their parents homes and discovering in University information that contradicts their earlier religious understandings.

Bro. Bennion advises a degree of compartmentailisation and an effort to stay well rounded. Religion can be like music or art - he argues. Science has it's truths and science can provide many useful methods for descirbing and deconstructing a masterpiece - but at the core, a masterpiece is a masterpiece because of how it is felt by the human heart. So learn and become successful in secular pursuits but do not allow that portion of your life to completely smother the more spiritual side of art, music, and religion. Those too are needed for a "balanced" and well rounded life.
Good summary, Roy. The balanced, well-rounded life is what spoke to me as I read it. I think I am not so inspired by art as maybe others are. But I don't dismiss it and do find I can work harder to further appreciate it, even if it is not natural to me. I have been influenced by Joseph Campbell, Eckhart Tolle, and others who suggest there is a good place to embrace the myths and religious perspective...but accept them for what they are, and realize there is a place for other types of approaches too, like science, for things in the scientific realm.

Wisdom comes from knowing when to apply the different approaches for a fulfilling life. There is still a place for religion in my life, even if I disagree with others at church on how far to take it.

Secular knowledge has helped us a lot...I don't know why people in church want to minimize or attack it unnecessarily. Maybe because it is more difficult to balance things than to just make it black and white.
Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."
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Reuben
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Re: Secular Knowledge

Post by Reuben »

Heber13 wrote: 08 Oct 2018, 09:11
Dkormond wrote: 07 Oct 2018, 12:44 From his work he defined what a cult is. His definition burrows deal into my soul.

1.) Cults control information.
2.) Cult Leaders are chosen by God and considered infallible.
3.) Cults demand purity
4.) Cults demand confession of imagined sins.
5.)Cult doctrines are inflexible.
6.) Cults Load the language
7.) Cult doctrine trumps experience
8.) Cult doctrine trumps existence
I think that is an interesting list. I have not read Robert Lifton, but that sounds interesting. I may have to check that out and put it on my list.

[...]

Regarding cults...I wonder how many religions are described by that list, and perhaps there is a sliding scale on some definitions of those things. I can see shades of it in the LDS church, but also not necessarily to unhealthy extremes.
You might be able to check a lot of boxes by using a cult checklist to evaluate your family or certain companies.

To even approach being a valid psychological instrument, they would have to use a Likert scale. As it is, they're just not good science.

Another reason they're not good science is that "a lot of checked boxes" hasn't been shown to correlate with any other traits or outcomes. At best, you can use them as a tool for introspection. At worst, you can use them as pseudo-scientific evidence to back up your claim that a group you don't like is harmful.
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Love before dogma. Truth before loyalty. Knowledge before certainty.
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Reuben
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Re: Secular Knowledge

Post by Reuben »

Roy wrote: 08 Oct 2018, 08:43 Bro. Bennion advises a degree of compartmentailisation and an effort to stay well rounded. Religion can be like music or art - he argues. Science has it's truths and science can provide many useful methods for descirbing and deconstructing a masterpiece - but at the core, a masterpiece is a masterpiece because of how it is felt by the human heart. So learn and become successful in secular pursuits but do not allow that portion of your life to completely smother the more spiritual side of art, music, and religion. Those too are needed for a "balanced" and well rounded life.
Is this a different sort of compartmentalization than what President Oaks advises? This is how I read Oaks:

1. All truth is self-consistent.

2. Scientific truth and religious truth are independent.

3. If science seems to be in conflict with religion, it's actually not because they're independent. Science must be overreaching.

The kind of progressive compartmentalization I've seen the most goes something like this:

1. There are many ways of reasoning about the world, many of which are enriching. Two are science and religion.

2. Reason about each using its own epistemology. Use each where it makes sense.

3. If there's a conflict, resolve it by erring on the side of goodness and compassion.

President Oaks's claim of independence is a much stronger form of compartmentalization. I imagine it as a big circle (drawn by a compass, perhaps?) with a line separating one half from another. The progressive believer would draw a lot of overlapping circles. A nerdy one might color-code the resulting regions by application area.

Independence affords religious belief the most protection, so I can see why it's attractive to him.
My intro

Love before dogma. Truth before loyalty. Knowledge before certainty.
Roy
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Re: Secular Knowledge

Post by Roy »

Reuben wrote: 10 Oct 2018, 11:51 The progressive believer would draw a lot of overlapping circles. A nerdy one might color-code the resulting regions by application area.
I like it!
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13
Old-Timer
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Re: Secular Knowledge

Post by Old-Timer »

Some people pursue and construct intellectual or secular knowledge / understanding around their emotional or religious foundation; others pursue and construct emotional or religious knowledge / understanding around their intellectual or secular foundation.

In other words, most people "study it out in their hearts and in their minds", but the order they use in the process can differ.

I am a thinker-analyst first, who then determines how I feel about what I analyze; my wife is a feeler-analyst first, who then determines how she thinks about what she feels.

The dominant, but not exclusive, orientation for top religious leaders is feeler-analyst. It is what it is.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken
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