Ex-Bishop Up for Disciplinary Council Regarding Minor Interview Outspeak

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mom3
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Re: Ex-Bishop Up for Disciplinary Council Regarding Minor Interview Outspeak

Post by mom3 » 17 Sep 2018, 14:42

I can't fault anyone for having had enough and wanting to leave. I've been close, myself.

Here is why I think, in general, staying provides a better platform to affect change, for those who can manage it:

1 - the people I reach by staying are my acquaintances in my local ward. The people I can reach by leaving are Church leaders in SLC. The latter has already made the case that they alone drive change. Therefore, from their own point of view, they are not going to change a major point of "doctrine" or long-standing policy. People at the local level may not have any voice in the short-term, but by slowly changing elements of the culture, I believe there can be an indirect effect on a number of issues. I have already seen local people change on topics that the Church Leaders won't budge on.

2 - And this is going to be a parable. A local Priest wears an orange shirt when blessing the sacrament. The YML and BP both see him in the hallway after SM and remind him gently that he should wear white. Next week, he's wearing forest green. BP and YML now talk to the boy's dad. Next week, he's wearing a gold shirt. This time, he goes into the bishop's office with the BP and YML. They explain to the boy that he needs to wear a white shirt. The boy says that actually, that's not a requirement, maybe you should read the handbook again. The BP says, I understand, but in our ward, we wear white. If you can't wear a white shirt, I can't let you participate in the sacred ordinance. The boy leaves the office, starts a facebook group, gets a bunch of signatures, sends and email to the BP and YML stating that he is NOT going to wear white and he's talking to his friends too. Next Sunday, none of the priests have a white shirt. The BP and the YML bless the sacrament. The next week, most of the deacons are not wearing white. Escalation, threats of action, frustration arise. Eventually the boy resigns from the Church. From that moment forward, wearing of a non-white shirt is equated with faithlessness, being deceived by the Devil, disobedience and rebellion. Therefore, now all our boys will wear EXTRA-white shirts to keep them from becoming apostate, like that boy last year. My point is that when you resign over an issue, then that issue rises to a higher level of disobedience/apostasy in the view of the members of the Church.

3 - I don't think "us vs them" is a good way to win friends or promote meaningful discussion. We all the time complain about the Church's "us vs them" mentality, and then we do it ourselves sometimes.


This ^^^^^^^.


I had collected my thoughts but On Own was more gracious and articulate.

The only thought I add, is that I have seen change come from within. It didn't change doctrine as much as practices. I watched my mom and other local stake leaders overturn the original block program plan of cancelling all midweek activities. When they first petitioned for the change they were met from all sides with "The Prophet has spoken ...." But they were gently persistent. In time the message was heard. Little by little change occurred. To be fair the new block program was still young enough that it was bendable, but the effort proves things can change from the bottom up.

Two piece garments were much the same way. The road a bit longer but the system was affected by long gentle efforts.

On most of the excommunication processes that have happened I have seen the black and white and not let it worry me. This effort I believe has a huge piece of caring for our flock behind it. I wish that the parties involved had both made changes in tactic because of the value of the issue.
"I stayed because it was God and Jesus Christ that I wanted to follow and be like, not individual human beings." Chieko Okazaki Dialogue interview

"I am coming to envision a new persona for the Church as humble followers of Jesus Christ....Joseph and his early followers came forth with lots of triumphalist rhetoric, but I think we need a new voice, one of humility, friendship and service. We should teach people to believe in God because it will soften their hearts and make them more willing to serve." - Richard Bushman

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nibbler
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Re: Ex-Bishop Up for Disciplinary Council Regarding Minor Interview Outspeak

Post by nibbler » 17 Sep 2018, 14:51

How much help do we need as a culture to view not obeying local and general leaders as being disobedient and rebellious? Does it take full on sedition to make people think that way or is it the default position when someone disobeys?

I get it. In your analogy I'd take the position of, "Well, I guess I won't be blessing the sacrament then." But I'm generally of the opinion that people at church need me to bless the sacrament far more than I need to bless the sacrament. If they run out of people with white shirts they'll eventually have to adapt.

Also, different policies have different levels of importance. Many people have been patiently waiting for the day of 2 hour church but the change is not imperative so we continue to patiently wait. Concerns over safety of children is a different matter. Children are being harmed while we wait for the change.

If you were sitting in class and noticed a fire but the teacher didn't notice, and every time you tried to warn people about the fire the teacher reprimanded you and said, "Don't speak until you raise your hand and I call on you." Then the teacher made you sit there for a few minutes with you wiggling your hand in the air just to drive home the point that you talked out of turn you might eventually reach the point where you scream FIRE and run out of the building taking as many people that will come with you.
You can't just have your characters announce how they feel... that makes me feel ANGRY!
— Robot Devil

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mom3
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Re: Ex-Bishop Up for Disciplinary Council Regarding Minor Interview Outspeak

Post by mom3 » 17 Sep 2018, 15:49

Also, different policies have different levels of importance. Many people have been patiently waiting for the day of 2 hour church but the change is not imperative so we continue to patiently wait. Concerns over safety of children is a different matter. Children are being harmed while we wait for the change.

If you were sitting in class and noticed a fire but the teacher didn't notice, and every time you tried to warn people about the fire the teacher reprimanded you and said, "Don't speak until you raise your hand and I call on you." Then the teacher made you sit there for a few minutes with you wiggling your hand in the air just to drive home the point that you talked out of turn you might eventually reach the point where you scream FIRE and run out of the building taking as many people that will come with you.

I agree. That's why the reactions make me sad. Sam was on to something that has fire in it. Not every Bishop crosses line, but plenty have. The fact that some reply came from church headquarters supports this. Maybe it was too little, too late. And maybe I am too much a pacifist, but I think it is a key issue and needs to continue being discussed. Sam (and other's around him) had the ability to keep things balanced enough to open those conversations.

In our local area no one has heard about Sam or his efforts. You had to either be in a faith transition or living in Utah to know about it. My husband had to explain it to our Bishop. Yes a letter came out. Some Bishop's read it. Other's didn't. They had no clue why it is in place.

Now Sam is gone. And everyone who knows the story and has decided to leave is gone. So did that fire actually get taken care of? Or is there still a fire, that no one is putting out.

I could spend hours complaining about the upper leadership. But they now can easily cross this off the list. Are children safer now?

Sam isn't gone because of his stance. He was cut off because of how he did it. His issue was also not ignored. No one pulled a dump truck up in front of him to cut him off. He got response. The hose was just too small. I wish he could have found a less "bold" way to make his statements and keep the conversation going.
"I stayed because it was God and Jesus Christ that I wanted to follow and be like, not individual human beings." Chieko Okazaki Dialogue interview

"I am coming to envision a new persona for the Church as humble followers of Jesus Christ....Joseph and his early followers came forth with lots of triumphalist rhetoric, but I think we need a new voice, one of humility, friendship and service. We should teach people to believe in God because it will soften their hearts and make them more willing to serve." - Richard Bushman

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mom3
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Re: Ex-Bishop Up for Disciplinary Council Regarding Minor Interview Outspeak

Post by mom3 » 17 Sep 2018, 22:13

Just when I think my soapbox platform is solid - some TBM topples me.

My husband has a co-worker who is devout as the day is long. At the end of the day the co-worker stopped by my husband's desk and said, "You know a lot of church stuff, right?"

Husband said, "Yes."

Co-worker, "What's the Sam Young deal?"

It was like a missionary golden question moment.

So off my soapbox I go. I hate packing it away. Don't worry I promise to drag it out in the future.

Thanks for all the input. I've enjoyed the discussion.
"I stayed because it was God and Jesus Christ that I wanted to follow and be like, not individual human beings." Chieko Okazaki Dialogue interview

"I am coming to envision a new persona for the Church as humble followers of Jesus Christ....Joseph and his early followers came forth with lots of triumphalist rhetoric, but I think we need a new voice, one of humility, friendship and service. We should teach people to believe in God because it will soften their hearts and make them more willing to serve." - Richard Bushman

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Re: Ex-Bishop Up for Disciplinary Council Regarding Minor Interview Outspeak

Post by On Own Now » 18 Sep 2018, 07:47

I do just want to make sure I'm clear on one point. I understand and I support those who do leave over policies/doctrines. I first gave serious thought to resignation in 1997, and the issue at the time for me was polygamy; not only its past practice, but also the current acceptance of its past practice and even doctrine. How can I be part of a Church that not only did this to women in the past, but continues to preach it to women today?

Ultimately, I decided to stay. I later came to StayLDS, which I never would have found if I had resigned, and here, I've been able to experience a much more rewarding FT (for me) by staying. Additionally, I've been able to share views of many fringe topics with faithful members and leaders and I feel like I've made some inroads.

I have had other experiences with nearly leaving. The November Policy was one. But, I'm still here. I reserve the right to resign in the future, if I just can't stay over some policy or doctrine and I feel a kinship with those who have or will.
"Let us therefore no longer pass judgment on one another, but resolve instead never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of another." --Romans 14:13

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Re: Ex-Bishop Up for Disciplinary Council Regarding Minor Interview Outspeak

Post by Roy » 18 Sep 2018, 10:18

On Own Now wrote:
18 Sep 2018, 07:47
I reserve the right to resign in the future, if I just can't stay over some policy or doctrine and I feel a kinship with those who have or will.
I have said repeatedly that I would resign if one of my children came out as gay. This to me would be a show of solidarity with my child. Not to say that the church was wrong so much as to say to my child that I would not associate with an organization that would make them feel less valuable as a person.

So why would I do this for my own kids and not for someone else's kids? Am I morally or ethically inferior or superior to someone that agitates in the church for change on this issue? What about someone that opposes SSM because of their belief in the plan of happiness and desire to help the majority to follow it without distraction?

Those questions are mostly rhetorical. I believe that there are moral and ethical positions on all sides.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

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Beefster
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Re: Ex-Bishop Up for Disciplinary Council Regarding Minor Interview Outspeak

Post by Beefster » 18 Sep 2018, 21:01

mom3 wrote:
16 Sep 2018, 23:31
I have one question though, how do having all these resignations help Protect the Children?
TBH, I don't think it really does, but that's not really the point. The movement is pretty much sunk now that its leader has been ex'd. It no longer has any credibility in the eyes of the average TBM. In resigning, people are sending the strong signal that what happened was not okay, that they stand with Sam, and that they feel the church is a lost cause beyond redemption.

In retrospect, I can say that perhaps the hunger strike wasn't the best idea, but he was already on the chopping block anyway.
Boys are governed by rules. Men are governed by principles.

Sometimes our journeys take us to unexpected places. That is a truly beautiful thing.

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mom3
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Re: Ex-Bishop Up for Disciplinary Council Regarding Minor Interview Outspeak

Post by mom3 » 18 Sep 2018, 21:38

Beefster wrote -
In resigning, people are sending the strong signal that what happened was not okay, that they stand with Sam, and that they feel the church is a lost cause beyond redemption.
Roy wrote -
I have said repeatedly that I would resign if one of my children came out as gay. This to me would be a show of solidarity with my child. Not to say that the church was wrong so much as to say to my child that I would not associate with an organization that would make them feel less valuable as a person.
From a point of view I do get it. Especially when you are protecting your own family or families you care about. My take was more about the cause itself. I don't think "he was on the chopping block" before the fast. I think that was the turning point.

I also am changing my mind on the dead issue thing.

On Own wrote -
Additionally, I've been able to share views of many fringe topics with faithful members and leaders and I feel like I've made some inroads.
This likely can be one of those issues. Time will tell.
"I stayed because it was God and Jesus Christ that I wanted to follow and be like, not individual human beings." Chieko Okazaki Dialogue interview

"I am coming to envision a new persona for the Church as humble followers of Jesus Christ....Joseph and his early followers came forth with lots of triumphalist rhetoric, but I think we need a new voice, one of humility, friendship and service. We should teach people to believe in God because it will soften their hearts and make them more willing to serve." - Richard Bushman

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Re: Ex-Bishop Up for Disciplinary Council Regarding Minor Interview Outspeak

Post by Curt Sunshine » 20 Sep 2018, 11:45

In the end, he got what he wanted - which was NOT to stay and try to continue to help make more changes. He wanted the whole enchilada or a complete break.

That is his right, and I won't condemn him for it. It isn't what I want, however. I want the movement to keep going, so I do what I can to stay in a situation where I can do that.

I wonder, seriously, if he has somewhere else to go where he will be happy. If not, I feel even worse for him than I do now.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

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Re: Ex-Bishop Up for Disciplinary Council Regarding Minor Interview Outspeak

Post by Heber13 » 20 Sep 2018, 11:54

I just wanted to say "HI" to beefster :wave:

'sup dude??

...ok...back to the topic...
Roy wrote:
18 Sep 2018, 10:18
Am I morally or ethically inferior or superior to someone that agitates in the church for change on this issue? What about someone that opposes SSM because of their belief in the plan of happiness and desire to help the majority to follow it without distraction?

Those questions are mostly rhetorical. I believe that there are moral and ethical positions on all sides.
I agree with this line of thinking and questions.

At some point, there begins to be the "principle of the matter" that motivates someone to take a stand or draw a line. At some point, it becomes a bit about pride. On both sides. The church is gonna do it too. There are choices to stay or leave.
Curt Sunshine wrote:
20 Sep 2018, 11:45
That is his right, and I won't condemn him for it. It isn't what I want, however.
Most of the time it has to do with more things than just the topic at hand...interviews with kids.
Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."

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