Name of The Church - Version 152

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DarkJedi
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Re: Name of The Church - Version 152

Post by DarkJedi » 19 Aug 2018, 11:43

nibbler wrote:
19 Aug 2018, 10:20
It was a big topic during PH today. I came dangerously close to making a comment but people were loving the news and I didn't want to ruin the spirit of the meeting. I figure we're still riding that wave of excitement of there being a new revelation in town. If this topic spills into subsequent weeks I may eventually say something.
Were we in the same meeting? Or are we the same person? Because this described my experience to a T.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

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dande48
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Re: Name of The Church - Version 152

Post by dande48 » 19 Aug 2018, 12:11

Heber13 wrote:
19 Aug 2018, 10:52
.. Then it seems we are trying to embellish things into incredible miracles that are really random or typical life day to day stuff that happens inside or outside of church...and therefore it doesnt matter if we have prophets or not.... It's all just like every other church... Just people trying to do their best and are nice people. It is what it is.
I'm not going to blanket statement this with an "all", but I'd say this accurately describes most religions. I'm not even sure this is a bad thing. Maybe ordinary life is a miracle. Maybe the value of having a prophet, is that the authority he is given from man and God, gives him the confidence to come up with some pretty radical ideas, and place them into practice. Having a prophet gives us the consistancy and confidence we need from religion, while allowing us to evolve.
Heber13 wrote:
19 Aug 2018, 10:52
...while life goes by with real issues...we talk about these things? :?

There are bigger fish to fry.
What bigger issues do you think they should cover?
"The whole world is a comedy to those that think, a tragedy to those that feel." - Horace Walpole

"Even though there are no ways of knowing for sure, there are ways of knowing for pretty sure."
-Lemony Snicket

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mom3
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Re: Name of The Church - Version 152

Post by mom3 » 19 Aug 2018, 13:11

Great quotes nibbler!!

We would get greater traction with a response like "Mormon means more good" than asking everyone to call us "The restored gospel of Jesus Christ"

Thumbs up to GBH! :thumbup:

I agree. And before GBH said it, Joseph Smith wrote a full dissertation on it. % paragraphs breaking down the word and history of it from Joseph's point of view and wrapping it up in the final paragraph with "Mormon means "More Good""

After wrestling it all week I am staying Mormon or Marmon if you choose. It's what my people have been all my life. Everyone else can call it whatever they want. If I get pushback, I am sourcing Joseph Smith and GBH.
"I stayed because it was God and Jesus Christ that I wanted to follow and be like, not individual human beings." Chieko Okazaki Dialogue interview

"I am coming to envision a new persona for the Church as humble followers of Jesus Christ....Joseph and his early followers came forth with lots of triumphalist rhetoric, but I think we need a new voice, one of humility, friendship and service. We should teach people to believe in God because it will soften their hearts and make them more willing to serve." - Richard Bushman

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DarkJedi
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Re: Name of The Church - Version 152

Post by DarkJedi » 19 Aug 2018, 14:01

The following article appears in Deseret News today: https://www.deseretnews.com/article/900 ... anada.html

The gist of the article is fine, it's about RMN commenting on his "impression" while visiting Canada. And I agree with this (although I'm actually fine with LDS Church):
The topic first came up during his evening devotional before a group of 4,000 in the Palais de congrès de Montréal, as President Nelson testified of the truthfulness of the church by using and emphasizing its full, formal name. “And I might add that it’s not the Mormon Church. It’s not the LDS Church. It’s not the Church of the Latter-day Saints,” he said.
However, this makes me wonder a bit if he's not a little deluded:
Summarizing the media response to Thursday’s announcement as “they’re pretty excited about it — ‘it can’t be done,’ ” President Nelson repeated the difficulty with a clarification: “I know it can’t — but it’s going to be, because the Lord wants it that way.”
If the Lord wants it that way, I think he's going to have to tell them personally and even then I'm not so sure they'll comply.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

My Introduction

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mom3
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Re: Name of The Church - Version 152

Post by mom3 » 19 Aug 2018, 16:28

If the Lord wants it that way, I think he's going to have to tell them personally and even then I'm not so sure they'll comply.
This is where I miss GBH - his ability to roll out a plan, whatever or whoever it was to reach, was golden. He always had the details clear. Everyone understood it. He never bit off more than others could chew. The recipient of the plan was always on his mind.

These keep running rough shod over everyone and everything. We have Stake Conference next week. The entire thing is dedicated to Ministry. We have some low level GA coming "to help" us out.

Are the next six months discussions the name change discussion?

And what happens when he and Oaks pass?
"I stayed because it was God and Jesus Christ that I wanted to follow and be like, not individual human beings." Chieko Okazaki Dialogue interview

"I am coming to envision a new persona for the Church as humble followers of Jesus Christ....Joseph and his early followers came forth with lots of triumphalist rhetoric, but I think we need a new voice, one of humility, friendship and service. We should teach people to believe in God because it will soften their hearts and make them more willing to serve." - Richard Bushman

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LookingHard
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Re: Name of The Church - Version 152

Post by LookingHard » 19 Aug 2018, 16:47

nibbler wrote:
19 Aug 2018, 10:20
the lord picked the wrong week to impress upon my mind the importance of coming back. To be completely honest, I feel like the topic only served to help me rediscover why I stopped attending PH in the first place.
I am about in the same place. I have been planning next month to back off on attendance at church during 2nd and 3rd hour. Part of me said earlier today, "do you REALLY want to do that given your wife is going to not like it?" The spewing forward of "this is the greatest and I just LOVE telling everyone I am a member of the church of Jesus Christ of latter-day saints! I don't know why I didn't always say this. It is so much better than Mormon". One nice elderly lady then said, "But what do we say when someone asks us what religion we are?" I had to just smile a bit, but they just kept going on. It made me realize YES - I want to skip out.

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SamBee
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Re: Name of The Church - Version 152

Post by SamBee » 19 Aug 2018, 17:06

Heber13 wrote:
19 Aug 2018, 10:55
nibbler wrote:
19 Aug 2018, 10:20
We talk about things that do not relate to my life or help me with life's challenges and we elevate them to the status of new issues I have to deal with.
This is kinda the feeling I'm wrestling with as well.
My advice to both of you is just let this pass, as I think it will. Not RMN's finest hour but not something terrible either. He has some good ideas, just not this one.
DASH1730 "An Area Authority...[was] asked...who...would go to the Telestial kingdom. His answer: "murderers, adulterers and a lot of surprised Mormons!"'
1ST PRES 1978 "[LDS] believe...there is truth in many religions and philosophies...good and great religious leaders... have raised the spiritual, moral, and ethical awareness of their people. When we speak of The [LDS] as the only true church...it is...authorized to administer the ordinances...by Jesus Christ... we do not mean... it is the only teacher of truth."

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Katzpur
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Re: Name of The Church - Version 152

Post by Katzpur » 19 Aug 2018, 17:49

Roadrunner wrote:
16 Aug 2018, 15:38
That being said I understand the desire to not be called Mormons, especially in contrast to polygamists. I had an argument with my very orthodox brother in law one time when I explained that the term "Mormons" is non-technical and a fairly general term for anyone who believes in the Book of Mormon, including polygamists. He got pretty upset, but the bottom line is that although the LDS church is the largest, there are many denominations who claim to be Mormon.
I agree, and here's the reason I came to that conclusion. Mormons are always being told that they are "not real Christians." Well, what's a "real Christian" if it's not someone who believes in Jesus Christ as the Savior of the world? Who has the right to tell anyone who considers himself to be a Christian that he's not. People can't just tell Mormons that they've got to stop trying to present themselves as Christians. Well, by the same logic, Latter-day Saints can't just say that it's technically inaccurate to speak of the FLDS as Mormons. If they consider themselves to be Mormons, it's not our right to tell them they're not, just because they're not the same kind of "Mormons" as we are.

I am all in favor of there being some clear-cut way for "us" (LDS) to distinguish ourselves from "them" (Mormon but not LDS). And ideally, it should be a way that makes sense to people outside our Church. I don't know that President Nelson's directive is going to make one ounce of difference, but people should know that when someone refers to "those Mormon polygamists," the reference is not to members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. If you try it, you will be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." ~Rudyard Kipling ~

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nibbler
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Re: Name of The Church - Version 152

Post by nibbler » 19 Aug 2018, 18:37

SamBee wrote:
19 Aug 2018, 17:06
Heber13 wrote:
19 Aug 2018, 10:55
nibbler wrote:
19 Aug 2018, 10:20
We talk about things that do not relate to my life or help me with life's challenges and we elevate them to the status of new issues I have to deal with.
This is kinda the feeling I'm wrestling with as well.
My advice to both of you is just let this pass, as I think it will. Not RMN's finest hour but not something terrible either. He has some good ideas, just not this one.
I fully expect for us to have forgotten all about this by next Sunday. My issue is that I feel this way most Sundays on the topics we like to discuss.

How to get more priesthood power. I didn't know it was an issue and I'm really not interested in getting more "power."
Let's revisit the family proclamation... again. No thanks.

I would list more things but we've been cycling on those two subjects for several months now. :crazy:
It’s strange. When I couldn’t find the drop and the plague came, you seemed so far away I would not ever be able to find you again. But I know now that you were here all along, and that nothing, not the Black Death nor seven hundred years, nor death nor things to come nor any other creature could ever separate me from your caring and concern. It was with me every minute.
― Connie Willis , Doomsday Book

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mom3
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Re: Name of The Church - Version 152

Post by mom3 » 19 Aug 2018, 18:45

Mormons are always being told that they are "not real Christians." Well, what's a "real Christian" if it's not someone who believes in Jesus Christ as the Savior of the world? Who has the right to tell anyone who considers himself to be a Christian that he's not. People can't just tell Mormons that they've got to stop trying to present themselves as Christians.
I do get that. I have appreciated the times we have tried that. Where I get hung up is #1 - Why do we need to add the word "restored" or "restoration". Just give Church of Jesus Christ and leave it. #2 A name change is not a story change. I would have much preferred a "we are going to be abundantly more Christ centered" no matter what our name.
"I stayed because it was God and Jesus Christ that I wanted to follow and be like, not individual human beings." Chieko Okazaki Dialogue interview

"I am coming to envision a new persona for the Church as humble followers of Jesus Christ....Joseph and his early followers came forth with lots of triumphalist rhetoric, but I think we need a new voice, one of humility, friendship and service. We should teach people to believe in God because it will soften their hearts and make them more willing to serve." - Richard Bushman

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