Never sure when to give kudos and when not to!

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SilentDawning
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Re: Never sure when to give kudos and when not to!

Post by SilentDawning » 18 Jul 2018, 02:10

dande48 wrote:
17 Jul 2018, 19:24
SilentDawning wrote:
17 Jul 2018, 18:41
Only when I'm completely satisfied with the experience of a Mormon will I give that back again.
Do you think this possible? What would it take?
I need to qualify 'completely satisfied' to say "satisfied enough". What would it take?

1. A testimony boosting experience that convinces me the church is all it says it is again. My experiences in the church have battered my testimony to the point I hang on to agnosticism in case it happens to be true at some point. At this point, TBM's would say "a wicked or adulterous generation seeketh a sign". I am not seeking a sign, but if God wants me to believe fully, I think I need my own Road to Damascus or other convincing experience if He chooses to give it. I haven't given up on Mormonism.

2. Time. I am wounded from the repeated abuse I've received from "members in good standing" and also church leaders. The thought of returning to the "member as unappreciated, neglected, unsupported church employee" model I have experienced continues to sicken me when I think of it. Time and reframing these past experiences would have to happen.The memories are still sharp, and although specific details have faded with time, the "hum" of the pain associated with the abuse is still deafening to me.

3. My fill of community and other service outside the church.

This part is odd. For years, I stayed in front-line positions in my career, even though I'm capable of leadership. Sometimes I refused opportunities to lead, other times, when I sought them, I was rejected.... It was a kind of angst for me, NOT to have been invited to take on this kind of role in the past when it was significant. So I was always thirsting for a different kind of leadership than I have experienced in the church or community. Recently, within the last six months, I was asked to take on a significant admin role, involving leadership to about 3 dozen people. It's been taxing, but rewarding. I feel way more relaxed now, at peace with my career, to the point further progression seems unnecessary for me. I feel like the lion who doesn't have to roar. He knows he can, based on my experiences in the last six months, and therefore, doesn't need to express himself further.

Well, after I have my fill of the leadership opportunities I never had throughout my life (including community service and paid leadership), I think this would encourage me to settle down to the church leadership experience again -- provided other factors above were allowed to materialize (#1, and #2).

There is one additional factor but I don't want to say it unless I invite life to make it happen.

That is what I think it would take. Notice how I didn't say anything that causes the church to change. If I re-engage, it will have to be with acceptance of the church as it is -- warts and all. This is because the core values/policies it holds that bother me are likely never to change in my lifetime. It will have to be on the strength of revitalized testimony, and the feeling that all leadership experiences have been explored and enjoyed.

The change will have to come from within.
"It doesn't have to be about the Church (church) all the time!" -- SD

"Stage 5 is where you no longer believe the gospel as its literally or traditionally taught. Nonetheless, you find your own way to be active and at peace within it". -- SD

The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."

My introduction: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1576

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dande48
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Re: Never sure when to give kudos and when not to!

Post by dande48 » 18 Jul 2018, 08:27

That's a good list, SD. I think my list would look similar.

With point #3, though, I'm interpreting that to mean the Church has not, and most likely will not be able to fulfill your needs (specifically, your need for leadership and meaningful service). Is it possible to be "satisfied enough", if the Church isn't meeting those needs? Because service and leadership (priesthood) are both core fundamentals of the Church. If the Church itself is not able to fulfill those needs, can you be "satisfied enough" with the Church, even if those needs are filled elsewhere?
SilentDawning wrote:
18 Jul 2018, 02:10
1. A testimony boosting experience that convinces me the church is all it says it is again...

If I re-engage, it will have to be with acceptance of the church as it is -- warts and all.
I feel like what the Church is (warts and all) and what the Church claims to be are pretty different. I think for this to reconcile, the Church would have to change what it says it is.
"The whole world is a comedy to those that think, a tragedy to those that feel." - Horace Walpole

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Roy
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Re: Never sure when to give kudos and when not to!

Post by Roy » 18 Jul 2018, 08:56

SilentDawning wrote:
17 Jul 2018, 18:41
I can praise, celebrate, and complement all I want, but my commitment level remains as the residual effect of my concerns.
A big part of my previous answer is a sense of distance. There is open space, gaps, or a buffer zone between what the church teaches and what I believe or do. I can shrug my shoulders or shout "hooray", But whatever I do I will do it from my side of the divide.

IOW, there was a time when my identity was very tied up in my belonging to the group. This gave me a sense of belonging, meaning, and purpose and it was good. Over the course of my life experiences (and my FC) my identity has become more individual and independent (which is also good). I just do not see that going back the way it was before under any circumstances. I have grown and changed, there is no way to stuff myself back into my former understanding and faith.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13

AmyJ
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Re: Never sure when to give kudos and when not to!

Post by AmyJ » 18 Jul 2018, 11:31

Roy wrote:
18 Jul 2018, 08:56
SilentDawning wrote:
17 Jul 2018, 18:41
I can praise, celebrate, and complement all I want, but my commitment level remains as the residual effect of my concerns.
A big part of my previous answer is a sense of distance. There is open space, gaps, or a buffer zone between what the church teaches and what I believe or do. I can shrug my shoulders or shout "hooray", But whatever I do I will do it from my side of the divide.

IOW, there was a time when my identity was very tied up in my belonging to the group. This gave me a sense of belonging, meaning, and purpose and it was good. Over the course of my life experiences (and my FC) my identity has become more individual and independent (which is also good). I just do not see that going back the way it was before under any circumstances. I have grown and changed, there is no way to stuff myself back into my former understanding and faith.
I can relate to this.
My husband and I are cautiously exploring what the open space or gaps are between what church teachings we are going to cling to and teach our children, and what our personal beliefs about church teachings are. Added is a social component (and expectations) that drive us nuts. We are non-traditional introverts with additional nearly invisible needs - so we don't fit the standard social norms easily.

My boundaries with the church were made easier in the last 10 years because I was never given heavy-duty callings. I used to think it was because others "needed" them more than I did - but now I am pretty sure that I was not socially connected enough to be considered for the callings at a ward level. Since we arrived in our branch 3 years ago, the leadership got the message to minimize the calls being offered due to our unique family circumstances. My main "calling" right now is making sure that I get our 2 girls to church on the Sundays when my husband has meetings, and cheer him on in his calling as executive secretary. I have taken on the personal assignment of being the nursery leader every Sunday that we are in church and they don't have a leader. Also, due to the whimsies of my toddler - I wind up taking her most Sundays when they have a leader and/or sitting in as an assistant because my toddler shrieks like a banshee while attending nursery without me these days. I also more or less function as a board member of the Achievement Day committee in the hopes that I can be a part of the solution to include my daughter in the social programs put on the by the church.

I say in jest that my family is a 2-talent family in a 5-talent branch because what my family can contribute to the church organization is less than most families can - but I believe that we are trying, and that our efforts are appreciated by God just as much as the higher producing families. Some of it is that we are not motivated to do more, and some of it is that we don't have the resources to do more. But there is a component that strongly believes that taking care of my family is an essential part of my personal calling from God.

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Heber13
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Re: Never sure when to give kudos and when not to!

Post by Heber13 » 18 Jul 2018, 16:34

If you want a positive experience, practice giving kudos 5 times more than you criticize it. Focusing on the good will help you see it, and feel it.

If you don't care, then it doesn't matter.

If you are finding negative things 5 times as often as something good, you are sure to suffer more while there.

It's more than just a Positive Mental Attitude...it is more about what you are focused on. There is good and bad in the church. "Kudos" are a reflection of your mind, as well as criticisms.

The church won't change whether you give kudos or not, so it comes down to what you want to experience, and if kudos or criticisms will give you what you want.
Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."

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SilentDawning
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Re: Never sure when to give kudos and when not to!

Post by SilentDawning » 19 Jul 2018, 08:07

dande48 wrote:
18 Jul 2018, 08:27
With point #3, though, I'm interpreting that to mean the Church has not, and most likely will not be able to fulfill your needs (specifically, your need for leadership and meaningful service). Is it possible to be "satisfied enough", if the Church isn't meeting those needs? Because service and leadership (priesthood) are both core fundamentals of the Church. If the Church itself is not able to fulfill those needs, can you be "satisfied enough" with the Church, even if those needs are filled elsewhere?
If the other fundamentals were there -- a revitalized testimony, time to forget the negative, traumatic, residual hum or previous experiences, and the other items then I think I could be satisfied.

The achievement of the whole thing is part of it. For example, if I were fully committed, I would be trying to do a number of things:

1. Improve the quality of teaching in our Ward on a much grander scale than I am now in my "calling".
2. Working to have a "good Sunday experience" rather than chasing after less actives in the ministering program.
3. More effective forms of measurement and use of results than we currently have.

My biggest obstacle, even if all the fundamentals were back in place, would be the tendency for leaders to slap people down who think outside the box. The church, unfortunately, is not the place for administrative IDEATION. It gets labelled as not the Lord's way, deviating from the inspired program, not the program of the church, and someone always invents a reason why your idea is no good -- particularly if you implement the idea and there is a problem. These would be hard for me, but I would also take it as a challenge to be an ideator in spite of an inflexible, bureaucratic structure.

Another thing I would enjoy doing is keeping the STake at bay. The local stake people come out of the blue with off the wall programs all the time, and I would kind of enjoy that balancing act, at least for a while.
"It doesn't have to be about the Church (church) all the time!" -- SD

"Stage 5 is where you no longer believe the gospel as its literally or traditionally taught. Nonetheless, you find your own way to be active and at peace within it". -- SD

The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."

My introduction: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1576

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Heber13
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Re: Never sure when to give kudos and when not to!

Post by Heber13 » 19 Jul 2018, 20:28

SilentDawning wrote:
19 Jul 2018, 08:07
The church, unfortunately, is not the place for administrative IDEATION.
Perhaps some of the reason for that is because when you are wandering in the desert, it isn't about how to wander more efficiently or more creatively. More creative ideas don't necessarily get you to the promised land.

I guess it is hard to know when we are supposed to come up with creative and smart ideas, or when we are supposed to wait for the Lord to lead us into the promised land. I guess it depends on what he purpose is for what we are doing when we meet on Sunday.

Sometimes it certainly feels like we just wander about. Any leader will do. Not much matters, anyway. Just how I feel lately. So, I'm not so motivated to seek new ways to teach or lead...it just is what it is. Take it or leave it. Not all that wander are lost...sometimes we just do it because that is what we do.
Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."

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SilentDawning
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Re: Never sure when to give kudos and when not to!

Post by SilentDawning » 20 Jul 2018, 17:26

Heber13 wrote:
19 Jul 2018, 20:28
Perhaps some of the reason for that is because when you are wandering in the desert, it isn't about how to wander more efficiently or more creatively. More creative ideas don't necessarily get you to the promised land.
Not really in my case -- this was a problem throughout my TBM experience in the church. I would come up with new ideas and they would be shot down routinely.

The one that stands out is when I felt a sign at the front of the church would be useful in attracting people to specific programs. I asked our Bishop, who was a manual thumping person, with a bureaucratic military background. His eyes lit up and said he'd consult the manual about why you can't have a sign. He came back to me, almost delighted, a few minutes later and explained why you can't have a sign -- with a certain enthusiasm. It was at that point I realized that any ideas outside of current church culture would have to be used elsewhere.
Last edited by SilentDawning on 21 Jul 2018, 12:22, edited 1 time in total.
"It doesn't have to be about the Church (church) all the time!" -- SD

"Stage 5 is where you no longer believe the gospel as its literally or traditionally taught. Nonetheless, you find your own way to be active and at peace within it". -- SD

The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."

My introduction: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1576

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Heber13
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Re: Never sure when to give kudos and when not to!

Post by Heber13 » 21 Jul 2018, 09:39

That's been my experience at church too.

It is like they have a little box a leader is allowed to play in...they want them to be creative with new ideas within that little box...not out of the box. Everything else gets shot down.
Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."

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Re: Never sure when to give kudos and when not to!

Post by DarkJedi » 21 Jul 2018, 09:55

I would agree Heber and SD. And I think it's primarily due to correlation - the church's desire to have uniformity. The days of innovations that brought about such things as Primary and Sunday School are gone. I think the little box analogy is fitting.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

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