Better to be Happy in Ignorance or Miserable in the Truth?

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SilentDawning
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Re: Better to be Happy in Ignorance or Miserable in the Truth?

Post by SilentDawning » 09 Jul 2018, 17:26

On Own Now wrote:
09 Jul 2018, 08:13
But, SD, I don't think that's a fair proposition. It assumes that the Church and its believers are patently wrong, and to use dande's analogy, assumes the Church is actively lying about everything.
I intentionally wrote the second or last paragraph of my opening post to show the conundrum could be applied to any orientation toward the church -- a positive one, or a negative one. I am not asserting the church is wrong and that TBM's are in ignorant bliss. I said it COULD BE that half believers are in ignorant bliss, and the TBM's know the truth, could be miserable in it (like I was before I came to STayLDS, assuming I had the truth at that time). it cuts both ways.

In fact, you can take the church out of it entirely and use a terminal illness analogy for discussion -- better to not know about the existence of the illness and then drop dead happy (provided it is symptomless, like certain forms of cancer), or to know about the illness and its risks and be miserable and then drop dead from it.


Which is better? I am preferring the ignorant bliss option provided you aren't forgoing a cure.
"It doesn't have to be about the Church (church) all the time!" -- SD

"Stage 5 is where you no longer believe the gospel as its literally or traditionally taught. Nonetheless, you find your own way to be active and at peace within it". -- SD

The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."

My introduction: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1576

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On Own Now
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Re: Better to be Happy in Ignorance or Miserable in the Truth?

Post by On Own Now » 10 Jul 2018, 06:49

SilentDawning wrote:
09 Jul 2018, 17:26
In fact, you can take the church out of it entirely and use a terminal illness analogy for discussion -- better to not know about the existence of the illness and then drop dead happy (provided it is symptomless, like certain forms of cancer), or to know about the illness and its risks and be miserable and then drop dead from it.

Which is better? I am preferring the ignorant bliss option provided you aren't forgoing a cure.
It's a conundrum, for sure. I once had an acquaintance who was diagnosed with just a few months to live, and that was tough for him, because he had to deal with that knowledge for the short rest of his life, and I know he didn't like that. I would much rather go quickly. On the other hand, I would hate to spend my last day on earth running meaningless errands and having the HTers over.
"Let us therefore no longer pass judgment on one another, but resolve instead never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of another." --Romans 14:13

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dande48
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Re: Better to be Happy in Ignorance or Miserable in the Truth?

Post by dande48 » 10 Jul 2018, 08:24

SilentDawning wrote:
09 Jul 2018, 17:26
In fact, you can take the church out of it entirely and use a terminal illness analogy for discussion -- better to not know about the existence of the illness and then drop dead happy (provided it is symptomless, like certain forms of cancer), or to know about the illness and its risks and be miserable and then drop dead from it.
Maybe I'm strange, but I'd rather know. It'd be good to come to terms with things before I go; to set my affairs in order, shift my focus, see old friends, leave a small legacy... if I died suddenly, I wouldn't be able to leave on my own terms. Happiness in ignorance is an illusion.
"The whole world is a comedy to those that think, a tragedy to those that feel." - Horace Walpole

"Even though there are no ways of knowing for sure, there are ways of knowing for pretty sure."
-Lemony Snicket

Roy
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Re: Better to be Happy in Ignorance or Miserable in the Truth?

Post by Roy » 10 Jul 2018, 08:27

nibbler wrote:
09 Jul 2018, 16:16
Roy wrote: ↑09 Jul 2018, 10:35
I see DW feeling bad and guilty about her failings all the time. Theoretically, this regret could be the first step towards repentance and self-improvement. However, I observe that some of these failings are just part of being human or are semi-permanent parts of your personality that are unlikely to go anywhere. Even if you do manage to improve in one area, there are always plenty of other areas to feel bad about. I do not want to go through life feeling bad about myself.


It's a trap that a lot of people fall into. I fell into that trap. Just the other day a person giving a talk during SM talked about their depression and how they finally felt divine approval when they were called to a specific calling. "I didn't think I was good enough to be a [calling], but god was showing that he thinks I'm good enough."
Yes, it is a trap but I hope that my point comes across that endless self justification is also a trap. Neither being too hard on yourself nor being overly easy on yourself is strictly based on reality and both have their pitfalls.
Another analogy is the parable of the ant and the grasshopper. In the parable the ant is triumphant and the grasshopper starves. I am an ant at heart. I save for a tomorrow that may never come because the security that a nest egg gives is more comforting to me than any enjoyment that I might actually get spending it. I read about the benefits of "experiences" like travel and family vacations. Unfortunately I cannot bring myself to splurge. If I were on a cruise I would be fretting about how much the cruise costs compounded by how much I am losing by missing work.

What I am trying to say is that there are "traps" on both sides and especially at the extremes.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13

Curt Sunshine
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Re: Better to be Happy in Ignorance or Miserable in the Truth?

Post by Curt Sunshine » 13 Jul 2018, 19:23

Frankly, I don't like to deal with "what if" scenarios that require a suspension of reality. I am who I am, and I do the best I can to be a good "I am" in the moment, and I know I can't change anything about my past. Therefore, it is enough to just me my present me and figure out how to be the happiest "I am" possible.

Generally speaking, it is better to be happy than to be miserable - so I find ways to be happy that are as harmless to others as possible. If me being totally happy makes others I love more miserable, I sacrifice a degree of that ideal happy to create a more equal happiness for my loved ones. It helps that I truly believe "there must needs be opposition **IN** all things" - including my own "happiness quotient".

I just don't believe most absolutes are healthy.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

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dande48
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Re: Better to be Happy in Ignorance or Miserable in the Truth?

Post by dande48 » 21 Jul 2018, 16:25

I came across this quote earlier today, and it reminded me of this thread. I thought I'd share it:
Fyodor Dostoyevsky wrote:"It is better to be unhappy and know the worst, than to be happy in a fool's paradise"
Agree? Disagree?
"The whole world is a comedy to those that think, a tragedy to those that feel." - Horace Walpole

"Even though there are no ways of knowing for sure, there are ways of knowing for pretty sure."
-Lemony Snicket

Roy
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Re: Better to be Happy in Ignorance or Miserable in the Truth?

Post by Roy » 22 Jul 2018, 10:01

The description "fool's paradise" means that a person is being willfully ignorant of potential trouble. Perhaps ignoring the mounting debt until the creditors come to repossess all the toys. In this scenario, I believe that most people would want to be fully informed of the situation that they might prepare for coming calamity and perhaps avoid it.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13

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Heber13
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Re: Better to be Happy in Ignorance or Miserable in the Truth?

Post by Heber13 » 26 Jul 2018, 17:55

dande48 wrote:
21 Jul 2018, 16:25
I came across this quote earlier today, and it reminded me of this thread. I thought I'd share it:
Fyodor Dostoyevsky wrote:"It is better to be unhappy and know the worst, than to be happy in a fool's paradise"
Agree? Disagree?
Agree.

It's not warm and fuzzy...but that is life. Live in the real world and be aware. Make the most of what you can.

Like staying in the church.

It may not be what we thought it was in our naivete...but it is good and has truth if you want it. Be open and honest with what it is. And what it is not.
Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."

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Reuben
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Re: Better to be Happy in Ignorance or Miserable in the Truth?

Post by Reuben » 28 Jul 2018, 07:54

Curt Sunshine wrote:
13 Jul 2018, 19:23
Generally speaking, it is better to be happy than to be miserable - so I find ways to be happy that are as harmless to others as possible. If me being totally happy makes others I love more miserable, I sacrifice a degree of that ideal happy to create a more equal happiness for my loved ones. It helps that I truly believe "there must needs be opposition **IN** all things" - including my own "happiness quotient".
This might be the first mention on the thread of the impact of your happiness/misery or knowledge/ignorance on other people.

I think I've found more truth since my faith transition. I feel like I have more capacity to love and understand people who are different from me. I believe that passing on what I've learned to my children according to their capacity to accept it will help them to be happier. I'm sure that acting on it has made me a better father. I think I'm a better person.

I'm less happy than I used to be, though. At least, I am this year. Who knows about next year?

Life is full of crappy trade-offs. Some are a natural part of living, and some are imposed by other people to protect what they think they need. Fortunately, unlike proverbial deals with the devil, the effects of these trade-offs don't last forever.
My intro

Love before dogma. Truth before loyalty. Knowledge before certainty.

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Heber13
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Re: Better to be Happy in Ignorance or Miserable in the Truth?

Post by Heber13 » 31 Jul 2018, 16:18

Reuben wrote:
28 Jul 2018, 07:54
Life is full of crappy trade-offs
amen, brother.
Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."

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