My Tentative Conclusion about gospel convos with Traditional Believers

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DarkJedi
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Re: My Tentative Conclusion about gospel convos with Traditional Believers

Post by DarkJedi » 14 Jul 2018, 10:29

nibbler wrote:
14 Jul 2018, 09:58
Caffeinated soda and tithing on gross:

Maybe there's the hard and soft view of SD's list of hard commitments. I think most members would feel accepted even when they don't abstain from caffeinated soda. After all, it's not a part of the enforced WoW, sodas are a hedge for the members that take things to the extreme. How accepted would someone be if they openly disregarded the counsel to totally abstain from drinking alcohol? They unapologetically drink it, maybe even show up to the ward BBQ with a 6 pack of beer.

Tithing is another one of those where there's some wiggle room. I've been in wards where suggesting tithing on anything less that gross would cause the stewards of the ward to go out of their way to make sure everyone knew you were in the wrong and reiterate the correct way to pay tithing. Other wards might be more in tune with the between you and the lord approach. I think someone could get away with openly not paying tithing and making it known that it's never going to happen but of course it would be hard for that person to be a full participant in the tribe.
I agree Nibbler that there are wards/stakes with much more pronounced (sometimes literally) "standards of belief." And I don't know of any ward that would be very accepting of an active member showing up at a ward picnic with a six pack of Natty Daddies. But that's actually the point - members often are very intolerant of the more open/visible things than other things while at the same time choosing to disregard some of the less visible things. Using your example, no one knows if I tithe on gross or not unless I tell them. We do have a very vocal member of our ward who takes every opportunity he gets (very literally) to say that is the only correct way - yet I know several other very faithful ("TBM") types in our ward who will admit they do not pay on gross and never have. Generally speaking, my ward is probably considered to be on the conservative side of things - but having been a member of this ward for a very long time and having been in leadership positions here I know there are sometimes vast differences in belief and practice. Those things aren't necessarily readily apparent, and the casual short term observer might say "the Coruscant Jedi Temple 42nd Ward thinks X" when in reality there is a wide variety of thinking on any given subject, even among the (perceived) most faithful. I believe in most wards the silent majority far outweighs the vocal few, and the those vocal few don't speak for the ward or for God (even when they might think they do). And even among those vocal few, there are things they choose not to partake of - they just hide it, intentionally or not. There is no "sinless" person.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

My Introduction

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SilentDawning
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Re: My Tentative Conclusion about gospel convos with Traditional Believers

Post by SilentDawning » 14 Jul 2018, 15:23

I still maintain there are lines that, when crossed, marginalize you more than others. One is not going to church for no good reason, another is non-payment of tithing at all, another is not holding a TR, yet another is obvious WoW violations like drinking caffeinated coffee, smoking etcetera.

People who are paying on net, are in fact, paying tithing, and probably holding a TR. People drinking caffeinated soda are not necessarily in violation of the WoW. They haven't crossed lines to the point it would be unanimous they are breaking basic commandments.
"It doesn't have to be about the Church (church) all the time!" -- SD

"Stage 5 is where you no longer believe the gospel as its literally or traditionally taught. Nonetheless, you find your own way to be active and at peace within it". -- SD

The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."

My introduction: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1576

Minyan Man
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Re: My Tentative Conclusion about gospel convos with Traditional Believers

Post by Minyan Man » 15 Jul 2018, 11:00

SilentDawning, you are a much better man than I am. My first reaction would of been anger. The second would of been silence.
You did neither.

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SilentDawning
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Re: My Tentative Conclusion about gospel convos with Traditional Believers

Post by SilentDawning » 15 Jul 2018, 12:13

Thanks. I appreciate the encouragement, I really do.
"It doesn't have to be about the Church (church) all the time!" -- SD

"Stage 5 is where you no longer believe the gospel as its literally or traditionally taught. Nonetheless, you find your own way to be active and at peace within it". -- SD

The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."

My introduction: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1576

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DarkJedi
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Re: My Tentative Conclusion about gospel convos with Traditional Believers

Post by DarkJedi » 15 Jul 2018, 15:16

SilentDawning wrote:
14 Jul 2018, 15:23
I still maintain there are lines that, when crossed, marginalize you more than others. One is not going to church for no good reason, another is non-payment of tithing at all, another is not holding a TR, yet another is obvious WoW violations like drinking caffeinated coffee, smoking etcetera.

People who are paying on net, are in fact, paying tithing, and probably holding a TR. People drinking caffeinated soda are not necessarily in violation of the WoW. They haven't crossed lines to the point it would be unanimous they are breaking basic commandments.
And yet all those people - paying on net or gross as long as they declare themselves full tithe payers - are still in the minority. Under 25% of members are tithe payers of any kind (full or not). That number is far lower outside the US and Canada. There are very likely in your ward a few active members who have seen the inside of a bar this week or tip the bottle at home and there are likely a few more than that who have visited a Starbucks or had a lemon tea at home. Frankly, the list could go on and on. I know a guy in my own ward who was a high councilor for many years who frequented a "gentleman's club" (as they are known in these parts) and was known to have had a lap dance or two - and he is married. Our current WML openly admits for years that he has struggled with coffee, and a counselor in the EQP often talks about his addiction to porn.

I don't disagree that when these things come to light those members may be marginalized, although we've head two bishops in a row now who tend to look the other way. There are known couples (straight and gay) in our ward who are "living in sin." They are mostly inactive, but a couple of the hetero ones show up at least monthly to ask the bishop for financial assistance - and get it. There is no movement to excommunicate or otherwise discipline them. Our stake, since the November 2015 policy, has excommunicated no gay couples - but there are several.

Here's my point of view - the "church" only has as much power as we let it have. I go to church to take the sacrament and be uplifted. The sacrament has meaning to me, but it has that same meaning in other churches as well. If people want to judge or marginalize, fine, I don't care. I am a high councilor and I know I could be released from that "lofty" position any day - which is also fine. I'd actually rather not have a calling. And that's the thing: I don't need it both ways.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

My Introduction

Minyan Man
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Re: My Tentative Conclusion about gospel convos with Traditional Believers

Post by Minyan Man » 15 Jul 2018, 20:44

SD, where does your friendship stand since this happened? Assuming you're still friends, how will this affect your relationship in the future?
It is difficult for me to understand what it takes for someone to call a "friend" to repentance. I'm sure he thinks he's doing it out of love &
concern. Calling a "friend" to repent has the connotation of "I know what's right & you don't". Or "I'm in a position to judge right & wrong & you
are definitely wrong & need to change."

The church just changed HT & VT to "ministering". It seems like a kinder & more compassionate program in theory.
There is also the Recovery Program. When someone confesses that they have a specific problem, are they called to repent?
Of course not. (I could be wrong.)

The more I think about this, the angrier I get. I hope you're not going in this direction.

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dande48
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Re: My Tentative Conclusion about gospel convos with Traditional Believers

Post by dande48 » 16 Jul 2018, 05:21

Minyan Man wrote:
15 Jul 2018, 20:44
Calling a "friend" to repent has the connotation of "I know what's right & you don't". Or "I'm in a position to judge right & wrong & you
are definitely wrong & need to change."
Personally, I think it can be useful and a sign of a solid friendship, if one feels comfortable enough to call the other to "repentance". There are times when, out of a sense of politeness, no one will mention a glaring flaw or difficulty, that's apparent to everyone but the "sinner". For lighter examples, "your fly's undone", "your breath stinks", "you've got gunk stuck in between your teeth". It takes a real friend to point something out like that. Harsher, but more important examples could be "You've been a real jerk to _______", "You've been neglecting your family lately", "You never paid me back". I've heard those friends referred to as a "Dutch Uncle". They are INVALUABLE friends. I'd much rather have friends who'd "call me to repentance", than those who always pretend everything is fine, even when it's not.

What would bug me, is if someone called me to repentance on account of my subjective, metaphysical beliefs (or lack there of).
"The whole world is a comedy to those that think, a tragedy to those that feel." - Horace Walpole

"Even though there are no ways of knowing for sure, there are ways of knowing for pretty sure."
-Lemony Snicket

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DarkJedi
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Re: My Tentative Conclusion about gospel convos with Traditional Believers

Post by DarkJedi » 16 Jul 2018, 05:25

Minyan Man wrote:
15 Jul 2018, 20:44
The church just changed HT & VT to "ministering". It seems like a kinder & more compassionate program in theory.
There is also the Recovery Program. When someone confesses that they have a specific problem, are they called to repent?
Of course not. (I could be wrong.)

The more I think about this, the angrier I get. I hope you're not going in this direction.
To the highlighted part, I think leadership roulette comes into play, and perhaps in the vein of this thread even "member roulette." There's a ward I visit from time to time where I could definitely see the bishop calling someone to repentance should they confess to him. There's actually no doubt in my mind he would do so - he's hardcore old school. And let's not even talk about some of the BYU student ward bishops. Seriously, don't get me going. And some wards are much more open and tolerant than others and that's where members come into play on this calling to repentance part. I actually have a related story, but I'm unwilling to share it publicly at this time.

A major theme in this thread has been judgementalism. I agree it's a problem and I think it might be more of a problem in the LDS church compared to most others although it certainly happens in other churches. Part of the issue in our church is that some of the things we consider to be sins are not sins in other churches or are less serious in other churches. For example, many Protestant churches don't really care about cohabitation and even in the Catholic church most would probably not say anything to or about the casual member cohabiting. That of course brings us around to the idea that there are no casual members of the LDS church - but maybe there should be. And, some of those things we consider sinful that other churches don't consider sinful (WoW for example) are somewhat visible. In our church some people notice if someone doesn't take the sacrament, in Catholicism it's no big deal and it's even more apparent who doesn't take it.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

My Introduction

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LookingHard
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Re: My Tentative Conclusion about gospel convos with Traditional Believers

Post by LookingHard » 16 Jul 2018, 05:26

DarkJedi wrote:
15 Jul 2018, 15:16
And yet all those people - paying on net or gross as long as they declare themselves full tithe payers - are still in the minority. Under 25% of members are tithe payers of any kind (full or not). That number is far lower outside the US and Canada. There are very likely in your ward a few active members who have seen the inside of a bar this week or tip the bottle at home and there are likely a few more than that who have visited a Starbucks or had a lemon tea at home. Frankly, the list could go on and on. I know a guy in my own ward who was a high councilor for many years who frequented a "gentleman's club" (as they are known in these parts) and was known to have had a lap dance or two - and he is married. Our current WML openly admits for years that he has struggled with coffee, and a counselor in the EQP often talks about his addiction to porn.
I just meet up with an old friend. Just a solid good guy that anybody would like to have as a friend. He is currently a bishop's counselor. Once I told him I was no longer a believer he said he believes in the power of the priesthood, but also drinks a few beers a week and he feels he is just fine as the WoW says it is OK.

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DarkJedi
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Re: My Tentative Conclusion about gospel convos with Traditional Believers

Post by DarkJedi » 16 Jul 2018, 05:33

dande48 wrote:
16 Jul 2018, 05:21
Minyan Man wrote:
15 Jul 2018, 20:44
Calling a "friend" to repent has the connotation of "I know what's right & you don't". Or "I'm in a position to judge right & wrong & you
are definitely wrong & need to change."
Personally, I think it can be useful and a sign of a solid friendship, if one feels comfortable enough to call the other to "repentance". There are times when, out of a sense of politeness, no one will mention a glaring flaw or difficulty, that's apparent to everyone but the "sinner". For lighter examples, "your fly's undone", "your breath stinks", "you've got gunk stuck in between your teeth". It takes a real friend to point something out like that. Harsher, but more important examples could be "You've been a real jerk to _______", "You've been neglecting your family lately", "You never paid me back". I've heard those friends referred to as a "Dutch Uncle". They are INVALUABLE friends. I'd much rather have friends who'd "call me to repentance", than those who always pretend everything is fine, even when it's not.

What would bug me, is if someone called me to repentance on account of my subjective, metaphysical beliefs (or lack there of).
I think you can point out a perceived flaw in a person without calling them to repentance. There is a difference in saying "You've got a little something right there on your cheek" and "You need to clean that up right now slob." Just saying. We were typing our last posts at the same time, but while I was typing I was questioning whether were I SD would I continue this friendship. There are members I am friends with but do not discuss church with and perhaps that would be my answer were I SD, but I also can't imagine any of them asking me how my testimony is partly because we both know we have disagreements. There are plenty of other things to talk about, so in some ways I suppose it comes back to not discussing religion or politics in polite conversation - even with religionists and politicians.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

My Introduction

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