My Tentative Conclusion about gospel convos with Traditional Believers

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SilentDawning
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Re: My Tentative Conclusion about gospel convos with Traditional Believers

Post by SilentDawning » 09 Jul 2018, 03:37

hawkgrrrl wrote:
08 Jul 2018, 20:45
Anyway, your friend wants multiple wives in the eternities, but his wife's not into it. Sounds like he's a true blue Mormon, alright.
In his defense, he didn't say he wanted multiple wives. He's not really that type to even talk about or comment on other women. He's very respectful and admiring of his wife. I felt his conversation(s) on this topic were doctrinal, not personal.

Interesting take on faith though. Black and white isn't faith. I gotta admit, it seems to take more faith to know all the dirty stuff in our history and still maintain some level of faith in the whole thing as possibly true. His approach is to reject what seems to be true about our history, rather than embrace it and deal with it.

But again, at this point, I was sorry I had opened up the rabbit hole. He's very happy where he stands in his relationship to the gospel. I hate to be one to disturb this in other people. If the goal of our life is to have joy and happiness, then stirring up doubt that shatters it all, in my view, isn't a goal of mine. We could argue whether it's better to be in bliss in the midst of untrue beliefs, or to be miserable with the truth in hand.

By the way, JS never denied the affair, according to Bushman, but he said it was not adulterous. I think the whole plural marriage thing is what allowed JS to be sexually liberated while being righteous at the same time -- at least, in his world.
"It doesn't have to be about the Church (church) all the time!" -- SD

"Stage 5 is where you no longer believe the gospel as its literally or traditionally taught. Nonetheless, you find your own way to be active and at peace within it". -- SD

The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."

My introduction: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1576

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LookingHard
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Re: My Tentative Conclusion about gospel convos with Traditional Believers

Post by LookingHard » 10 Jul 2018, 05:48

hawkgrrrl wrote:
08 Jul 2018, 20:45
Anyway, your friend wants multiple wives in the eternities, but his wife's not into it. Sounds like he's a true blue Mormon, alright.
I love what Claudia Bushman (wife of Richard Bushman) said about polygamy (don't have the exact quote). She pressed her husband if he would take on additional wives in the afterlife and he squirmed and said if God told him to. Claudia said, OK, then I promise to do my best to make you and all your wifes as miserable as possible.

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dande48
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Re: My Tentative Conclusion about gospel convos with Traditional Believers

Post by dande48 » 10 Jul 2018, 06:19

SilentDawning wrote:
08 Jul 2018, 19:35
He eventually said "Everyone is trying to discredit JS"
Not to get too political, but the first thing that came to my mind: "FAKE NEWS! IT'S ALL FAKE NEWS!" Or in more TBM terms, "ANTI-MORMON!!! ANTI-MORMON! It's all lies!" It seems like to go-to defense, when you don't have any solid counter-arguments.

It's been taught as over-the-pulpit doctrine that both polygamy is required for exaltation, and that God is a polygamist. And Brigham Young said there was nothing he spoke over the pulpit that wasn't meant to be taken as literal scripture for the saints. You've got to either pick and choose what doctrines to believe, or blatantly ignore everything Church leaders have said pre-1985.

I've got one of those TBM wives who vehemently opposes polygamy, and doesn't believe it's doctrine. She told me her ancestors flat-out refused to practice or believe in the doctrines of polygamy, and wouldn't support it in the next life either. I still don't quite get how she holds those two contradicting views... both that the Church/Restoration/Priesthood is true, while straight up denouncing polygamy. It looks to me like a strong case of doublethink.
"The whole world is a comedy to those that think, a tragedy to those that feel." - Horace Walpole

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Heber13
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Re: My Tentative Conclusion about gospel convos with Traditional Believers

Post by Heber13 » 10 Jul 2018, 10:43

SilentDawning wrote:
09 Jul 2018, 03:37
In his defense, he didn't say he wanted multiple wives. He's not really that type to even talk about or comment on other women. He's very respectful and admiring of his wife. I felt his conversation(s) on this topic were doctrinal, not personal.
I would say that in the same vein as him talking about his wife, he was also talking about you and your beliefs. Doctrinal and opinionated, not personal or meaning any malice or harm.

He did reveal his hand a bit though on what he thinks, and may not realize how offensive his thought is to any woman...or any friend like you that believes differently.

He simply is ignorant to the offensive side of his well-intentioned beliefs. (ie. "I thought you benefit from my honesty that you look fat in those pants")

I don't know if your talking to him will open his mind to it, or if it is fruitless and doesn't need to be discussed with him further. But most of the time we don't really enlighten others who believe differently. And you just allow them to be different and leave it alone.
Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."

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On Own Now
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Re: My Tentative Conclusion about gospel convos with Traditional Believers

Post by On Own Now » 10 Jul 2018, 12:16

dande48 wrote:
10 Jul 2018, 06:19
I still don't quite get how she holds those two contradicting views... both that the Church/Restoration/Priesthood is true, while straight up denouncing polygamy. It looks to me like a strong case of doublethink.
My opinion from afar? Good for her and good for you. It's something to celebrate and I hope lots of the faithful work toward this position. My wife doesn't believe polygamy is from God, either. I have good friends who are strong members and leaders in the Church who feel the same way. I believe 25 years from now, that's what most members will think. Personally, I don't think of these and contradicting views at all. Rather, I think of it as a great example of what we often promote here: non-black-and-white thinking.
"Let us therefore no longer pass judgment on one another, but resolve instead never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of another." --Romans 14:13

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SilentDawning
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Re: My Tentative Conclusion about gospel convos with Traditional Believers

Post by SilentDawning » 11 Jul 2018, 07:35

On Own Now wrote:
10 Jul 2018, 12:16
dande48 wrote:
10 Jul 2018, 06:19
I still don't quite get how she holds those two contradicting views... both that the Church/Restoration/Priesthood is true, while straight up denouncing polygamy. It looks to me like a strong case of doublethink.
My opinion from afar? Good for her and good for you. It's something to celebrate and I hope lots of the faithful work toward this position. My wife doesn't believe polygamy is from God, either. I have good friends who are strong members and leaders in the Church who feel the same way. I believe 25 years from now, that's what most members will think. Personally, I don't think of these and contradicting views at all. Rather, I think of it as a great example of what we often promote here: non-black-and-white thinking.
The issue of plural marriage aside, the issue is that if you say 'I don't believe this about Mormon doctrine, but I believe this" it implies the whole thing isn't what the church says it is -- a divine organization with divine roots, and the truth given by decree from prophets. For the longest time, people called plural marriage doctrine. Then, it was made non-doctrinal for this life when the church's assets were threatened if they continued with the practice. But it is still believed to be doctrine in the eternities, although down played now.

It's almost like when you start being a buffet Mormon from a BELIEF perspective, it opens up a can of worms. And at that point, it becomes not much different than any other religion out there....
"It doesn't have to be about the Church (church) all the time!" -- SD

"Stage 5 is where you no longer believe the gospel as its literally or traditionally taught. Nonetheless, you find your own way to be active and at peace within it". -- SD

The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."

My introduction: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1576

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hawkgrrrl
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Re: My Tentative Conclusion about gospel convos with Traditional Believers

Post by hawkgrrrl » 11 Jul 2018, 12:17

As our stake president's wife pointed out "We are ALL cafeteria Mormons and cafeteria humans." When it comes to doctrine, nobody really buys everything that's been said for several reasons: 1) they don't know everything that's been said, 2) leaders have contradicted each other, so which thing do you choose to agree with (they like to brush these under the rug, but these disagreements exist), and 3) people have different life experiences, so things matter to a different extent to one person more than to another.

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SilentDawning
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Re: My Tentative Conclusion about gospel convos with Traditional Believers

Post by SilentDawning » 14 Jul 2018, 06:40

hawkgrrrl wrote:
11 Jul 2018, 12:17
As our stake president's wife pointed out "We are ALL cafeteria Mormons and cafeteria humans." When it comes to doctrine, nobody really buys everything that's been said for several reasons: 1) they don't know everything that's been said, 2) leaders have contradicted each other, so which thing do you choose to agree with (they like to brush these under the rug, but these disagreements exist), and 3) people have different life experiences, so things matter to a different extent to one person more than to another.
Although I agree with this -- not only because people have PREFERENCES, but because they have different STRENGTHS -- TBM's draw the line on certain HARD commandments...

1. WoW
2. Tithing
3. Chastity
4. Attending church regularly
5. Faithfulness on bedrock doctrinal, historical issues

And then, TBM's are often cafeteria on the SOFT items

1. Sabbath Day
2. Family History Research
3. Acceptance of callings

The problem is when you are cafeteria on the HARD commandments, that is when the conversation turns unpleasant. I can have a cafeteria conversation on the soft items with TBM's no problem, but on the hard commandments? You get the push back like I did on my trip.
"It doesn't have to be about the Church (church) all the time!" -- SD

"Stage 5 is where you no longer believe the gospel as its literally or traditionally taught. Nonetheless, you find your own way to be active and at peace within it". -- SD

The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."

My introduction: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1576

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DarkJedi
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Re: My Tentative Conclusion about gospel convos with Traditional Believers

Post by DarkJedi » 14 Jul 2018, 08:36

I don't know SD. I know several TBM types who don't tithe on gross, consider caffeinated soda perfectly acceptable (while others bristle at any caffeine), and don't attend church while on vacation for example. And often when being totally candid and in private, there is also considerable variation in the "bedrock doctrine" beliefs. I agree with Hawk, and Curt often makes this assertion as well - we are all cafeteria Mormons to some extent. In actuality it is impossible not to be.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

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nibbler
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Re: My Tentative Conclusion about gospel convos with Traditional Believers

Post by nibbler » 14 Jul 2018, 09:58

Caffeinated soda and tithing on gross:

Maybe there's the hard and soft view of SD's list of hard commitments. I think most members would feel accepted even when they don't abstain from caffeinated soda. After all, it's not a part of the enforced WoW, sodas are a hedge for the members that take things to the extreme. How accepted would someone be if they openly disregarded the counsel to totally abstain from drinking alcohol? They unapologetically drink it, maybe even show up to the ward BBQ with a 6 pack of beer.

Tithing is another one of those where there's some wiggle room. I've been in wards where suggesting tithing on anything less that gross would cause the stewards of the ward to go out of their way to make sure everyone knew you were in the wrong and reiterate the correct way to pay tithing. Other wards might be more in tune with the between you and the lord approach. I think someone could get away with openly not paying tithing and making it known that it's never going to happen but of course it would be hard for that person to be a full participant in the tribe.

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