Revelation

Public forum for topics that don't fit into the other categories.
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Heber13
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Re: Revelation

Post by Heber13 » 13 Oct 2009, 22:41

Rix wrote:(and especially you, Heber!!!) ;)
Thanks Rix. You are a holy man! :)

I certainly agree the title or calling doesn't make one elevated above another, we all have a work to do, just different parts to play. Ray had a nice blog post about his father that made me think a lot about the callings we are given...some public and some private in our homes. (see blogpost here: http://thingsofmysoul.blogspot.com/2007 ... rning.html

How we perform our calling is all that is important in God's eyes.

However, some people are "holier" or more righteous in their hearts than others, I think, by their choices and by the love in their hearts. I esteem most of the GAs as this way, just based on observation...but certainly your advice is well worthwhile and the status is less important. Thanks for reminding me of that!

Perhaps another question for Spacious Maze to answer (or others): Does revelation depend on worthiness or righteousness or being holy?
Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."

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spacious maze
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Re: Revelation

Post by spacious maze » 13 Oct 2009, 22:53

I certainly think receiving revelation is a privilege. I know I feel closer to God and feel the spirit more often when I'm being a good fellow. It only makes sense that one should be in the right state of character to be able to receive the Lord.

And back to the original question; I was wondering more about the JS revelations, where he would kneel in prayer, ask something of God, and turn and speak God's words to his scribe. Does that kind of revelation/relationship still exist?

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Heber13
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Re: Revelation

Post by Heber13 » 14 Oct 2009, 15:37

spacious maze wrote:And back to the original question; I was wondering more about the JS revelations, where he would kneel in prayer, ask something of God, and turn and speak God's words to his scribe. Does that kind of revelation/relationship still exist?
In my opinion, no. Perhaps the landscape is different, and with the church established and councils and general conferences and on and on...there is less need for major visions like in Joseph's day.

It is interesting to me that the church's teaching to investigators is that the heavens aren't closed...that just as God spoke to prophets in ancient times, God has spoken to prophets in our day. That is the teaching. So the possibility of these kind of revelations is believed by most members...yet look at how the canonized scriptures (D&C) have not been added to since 1918.
Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."

Poppyseed
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Re: Revelation

Post by Poppyseed » 14 Oct 2009, 16:00

Heber13 wrote:
spacious maze wrote:And back to the original question; I was wondering more about the JS revelations, where he would kneel in prayer, ask something of God, and turn and speak God's words to his scribe. Does that kind of revelation/relationship still exist?
In my opinion, no. Perhaps the landscape is different, and with the church established and councils and general conferences and on and on...there is less need for major visions like in Joseph's day.

It is interesting to me that the church's teaching to investigators is that the heavens aren't closed...that just as God spoke to prophets in ancient times, God has spoken to prophets in our day. That is the teaching. So the possibility of these kind of revelations is believed by most members...yet look at how the canonized scriptures (D&C) have not been added to since 1918.

Maybe I see this a little differently. I am not sure the revelations recieved by prophets are only "valid" or revolutionary when they reveal something new. I am rereading the bofm and I just finished the book of Jacob. An angel came to the dude and told him to tell the men to shape up and gave them a thing or two to thing about with regards to desiring riches. I think the same thing happens today and anyone who attends priesthood session would agree. I also think that prophets may obtain visions or experiences simply for themselves that they are perhaps warned not to share. If Moses could ask and then be shown all the worlds and Joseph F ask and be shown the spirit world, why couldn't Tom ask to see the same and be granted it?

Beyond that , I personally believe there is more cannon waiting for us. The BofM defintely had a sealed portion and the BofM speaks of different records from all the tribes of Israel that will one day be available. It doesn't seem odd to me that God would deliver up some scriptures and then let the people deal with that portion for a long while. Moses did it. The Nephites did it with the plates of brass. I am not really sure the early church had a canon beyond what the Jews had and the sermons that were recorded. I guess I am not sure it is fair to say that their is no revelation just because it isn't brand new. I think we still get stuff that is hot off the press. But perhaps I am returning to my idealistic ways. :D
“Be not afraid of growing slowly; be afraid only of standing still.” --old Chinese proverb

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mormonheretic
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Re: Revelation

Post by mormonheretic » 14 Oct 2009, 23:15

There are certain people, like Joseph Smith and Moses, who seem to be in a category all by themselves. Then there are other prophets: Amos, Obadiah, Pres Hinckley, Monson, who are very different types of prophets than Joseph Smith and Moses. So, no, I don't think that Pres Monson gets the same types of revelations that Moses did. Joseph Smith and Moses are in very unique company.

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HiJolly
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Re: Revelation

Post by HiJolly » 19 Oct 2009, 14:12

mormonheretic wrote:There are certain people, like Joseph Smith and Moses, who seem to be in a category all by themselves. Then there are other prophets: Amos, Obadiah, Pres Hinckley, Monson, who are very different types of prophets than Joseph Smith and Moses. So, no, I don't think that Pres Monson gets the same types of revelations that Moses did. Joseph Smith and Moses are in very unique company.
I wish there were a little "Yeah, what he said" button to click on.

MH, I agree.

HiJolly
Men are not moved by events but by their interpretations.
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Euhemerus
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Re: Revelation

Post by Euhemerus » 19 Oct 2009, 14:38

Curt Sunshine wrote:Honestly, I don't think our society would accept another Joseph Smith - even less than it did the first one.
I think this is true, and when I think about it, the implications are telling. We are shoving out the mystics in favor of an objective reality. I think there's both an upside and downside to this.
Don't believe everything you think
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Heber13
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Re: Revelation

Post by Heber13 » 19 Oct 2009, 16:23

Euhemerus wrote:
Curt Sunshine wrote:Honestly, I don't think our society would accept another Joseph Smith - even less than it did the first one.
I think this is true, and when I think about it, the implications are telling. We are shoving out the mystics in favor of an objective reality. I think there's both an upside and downside to this.
I tend to agree...although the scriptures are full of stories when the people weren't really "ready" or wanting a prophet, but God sends His word through prophets when they need it, not when they want it or even if they'll accept it. I just don't know if we need anything more than what we have with the BoM and General Conference talks.
Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."

AmyJ
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Re: Revelation

Post by AmyJ » 16 May 2018, 11:37

Heber13 wrote:
13 Oct 2009, 22:41
Perhaps another question for Spacious Maze to answer (or others): Does revelation depend on worthiness or righteousness or being holy?
Here are my non-traditional thoughts so far from my faith transition viewpoint:
NOTE: At this point I feel fairly blinded in receiving personal revelation and am looking for answers on how to do so. My thoughts are by definition currently biased against the traditional emotional/mental nudges.

1. Revelation depends on worthiness/righteousness/sanctification only in the sense that that is what it takes for a person to "get their head in the game" so to speak. I feel we are admonished to "pray", "read scriptures" and go to church in part because those are rituals that we can use to prepare ourselves to be/encounter holiness. In the last 20 years, I think the message has updated to "pray meaningfully", "read scriptures - and ponder", "go to church ready, prepared and willing to renew covenants". So, sometimes I listen to scriptures/inspirational audio books or music while cleaning to reset where my head is. I find value in meditating and doing chores. I also view personal meaningful past revelations as "scripture" so I take the "read your scriptures" to also mean "review times in your life when God interacted with you in a meaningful way and reflect on lessons learned in those experiences" - your mileage may vary.

2. Revelation isn't really about you...maybe God needs to bring about something or let someone else know something through you The scriptures are chalk full of examples of when the prophet/inspired leader asking the question got revelation that wasn't for the people being served. Thousands and thousands of people have asked similar questions to what Joseph Smith is recorded as asking with less dramatic results. I don't know why some people get dramatic revelations, others get specific revelations, and still others are left without specific revelations - but it tells me there are external variables at play, which I attribute to God and a greater plan.

3. Innate ability - I think that some people have an innate ability to identify and codify (maybe transmit and translate) messages that appear to come from a higher source to themselves and others around them in their sphere of influence.

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DarkJedi
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Re: Revelation

Post by DarkJedi » 16 May 2018, 13:53

Since Spacious Maze has not logged into this site for over 6 years, it's unlikely he or she will comment.

From my own point of view (since this thread was started way before my time here as well) is that revelation does not depend on worthiness. There is no scriptural basis for the pseudo doctrine that companionship of the Holy Ghost or revelation (or whatever other related thing) is based on worthiness. I may be wrong about that, please point me to the scripture if I am. Joseph Smith himself was clearly not always "worthy" of revelation in the sense we use worthiness today. I have worked in prison settings, including maximum security with lifers who committed multiple murders and had no hope of parole. The Spirit can be and is present in those places.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

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