How do I

Public forum for topics that don't fit into the other categories.
Curt Sunshine
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Re: How do I

Post by Curt Sunshine » 18 Jun 2018, 12:52

I have had a few experiences when I believed I actually was getting inspiration / revelation regarding a calling.

Otoh, I have experienced MANY times when I thought the decisions being made were thoughtful, good, and "right" for the organization and the individuals.

Finally, there have been times when callings were extended out of desperation. Music callings tend to be this way, but there have been others.

Were they "of God"? Sure, I can accept that in most cases. Were they "from God" or "God's will"? Maybe; maybe not.

I don't really care. My primary concern is doing no harm (or as little as possible) when dealing with callings.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

Kipper
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Re: How do I

Post by Kipper » 18 Jun 2018, 13:20

dande48 wrote:
17 Jun 2018, 14:47
"When I became an adult, when I opened my eyes and saw actuality, then I started to laugh and have never stopped laughing since that time... This I saw, and I laughed."
Kipper wrote:
17 Jun 2018, 12:51
Everything makes me cringe and it shouldn't. Everybody sounds so dramatic and far fetched. How do I get out of this state of mind. How do I stay in it and not express myself.
Laugh.
I can try that, I'm sure there will be some relief.

Kipper
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Re: How do I

Post by Kipper » 18 Jun 2018, 13:29

Roy wrote:
18 Jun 2018, 11:10
... One strategy is to pretend that you are an Anthropologist studying the ritualistic patterns of a strange sub-culture.

my $0.02 - your mileage may vary.
:clap:
For real, it's easy to see these meetings as a strange sub-culture.

Roy
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Re: How do I

Post by Roy » 18 Jun 2018, 15:54

The following article is from a Mormon anthropologist (a Mormon that works as an anthropologist). He applied some of his anthropologist training to SM with fascinating observations.

https://www.sunstonemagazine.com/pdf/081-20-27.pdf
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13

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dande48
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Re: How do I

Post by dande48 » 18 Jun 2018, 16:20

Roy wrote:
18 Jun 2018, 11:10
It could be said that one cannot "know" concerning God - however, that would be an ironic point coming from a Mormon. :lol:
Yeah, most members claim to be Gnostic, but I don't believe them. ;)
"The whole world is a comedy to those that think, a tragedy to those that feel." - Horace Walpole

"Even though there are no ways of knowing for sure, there are ways of knowing for pretty sure."
-Lemony Snicket

Kipper
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Re: How do I

Post by Kipper » 19 Jun 2018, 12:51

Kipper wrote:
18 Jun 2018, 13:20
dande48 wrote:
17 Jun 2018, 14:47
"When I became an adult, when I opened my eyes and saw actuality, then I started to laugh and have never stopped laughing since that time... This I saw, and I laughed."
Kipper wrote:
17 Jun 2018, 12:51
Everything makes me cringe and it shouldn't. Everybody sounds so dramatic and far fetched. How do I get out of this state of mind. How do I stay in it and not express myself.
Laugh.
I can try that, I'm sure there will be some relief.
Trying to take a close honest look at myself in respect to the institution (as I see it). I see so many good men and women who listen to each other say so many good things, thank each other for their words and agree that these things are all inspired and good for everyone. I just don't see it that way. I am so turned off that I have almost completely lost the spiritual feeling I used to have while at church and listening to conference. When I pray (rarely) is feels like I am talking to church leaders from an empty room. Really unfulfilling. I remember as a young teenager (I was very active) attending a weeknight service with a friend at his place of worship. We sat in a circle at the end and held hands while the leader prayed and it felt empty to me. Then he said "I think we have all felt the spirit here" and it just turned me off that he would assume that for me. Thing is, I feel exactly the same now at my own place of worship. This is why it's so hard to be there, I just can't find that neutral comfortable balance. People know it too. I can tell by how much closeness and fellowship I (don't) receive in contrast to the past. There's no concern or interest, it's just like I've crossed some line and by default I'm on my own. I'm sure we all have our turning point and mine might not be the most hurtful but for me there is a clear and painful defining point when the demands of progressing and being an active "appointee" in this church took away from me the things that mattered most. Among those things taken away are traditions I spent years building up with my family and son and time spent together. The most agonizing times for me are when I hear we are about family first followed by someone telling me you're son will see you honoring you priesthood and see your example while magnifying your calling. He'll understand and want to follow your footsteps. They'll top it off with their own personal examples. It kills me when we spend a week talking about maximizing god given potential and completing education after I was compelled to drop out of night school to finish my 5 year appointment serving as a YM leader. Squandered my last opportunity to set an example and earn my only degree while son was still young. Following that he went on his mission and things never were the same. I would be happy to go on but I'll stuff it all back inside where it will continue to eat away until the end. In the meantime I'll find ways and things to do that distract me and help me enjoy life. Thanks for allowing the overflow.

nibbler
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Re: How do I

Post by nibbler » 19 Jun 2018, 14:12

Roy wrote:
18 Jun 2018, 11:10
One strategy is to pretend that you are an Anthropologist studying the ritualistic patterns of a strange sub-culture.
That one never worked for me. I was already far too familiar with the tribe, in fact that was perhaps the hardest thing to deal with, I had reached a place where the tribe was too predictable. I like to be surprised. To each their own.
Kipper wrote:
17 Jun 2018, 10:56
Stake pres councillor during GD "...if I ask you to speak in sacrament your answer is to the Lord. He is asking not me. You can say yes or no to him of you want. Same with callings..."
:lol: :lol:

Get up, give an unorthodox talk, if the SPC gives you any flack for the content of the talk, "God asked me to give a talk. God knew what I'd say. God was talking, not me. That was the message god wanted you to hear." :twisted:

Or don't give the talk and say, "You must be real fun at parties." or "My answer to the lord is that the stake president counselor sure is full of himself."

Sheesh.

Kipper
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Re: How do I

Post by Kipper » 19 Jun 2018, 14:55

nibbler wrote:
19 Jun 2018, 14:12
Roy wrote:
18 Jun 2018, 11:10
One strategy is to pretend that you are an Anthropologist studying the ritualistic patterns of a strange sub-culture.
That one never worked for me. I was already far too familiar with the tribe, in fact that was perhaps the hardest thing to deal with, I had reached a place where the tribe was too predictable. I like to be surprised. To each their own.
Kipper wrote:
17 Jun 2018, 10:56
Stake pres councillor during GD "...if I ask you to speak in sacrament your answer is to the Lord. He is asking not me. You can say yes or no to him of you want. Same with callings..."
:lol: :lol:

Get up, give an unorthodox talk, if the SPC gives you any flack for the content of the talk, "God asked me to give a talk. God knew what I'd say. God was talking, not me. That was the message god wanted you to hear." :twisted:

Or don't give the talk and say, "You must be real fun at parties." or "My answer to the lord is that the stake president counselor sure is full of himself."

Sheesh.
:lolno: :silent:

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Heber13
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Re: How do I

Post by Heber13 » 19 Jun 2018, 16:44

I believe church is the place where you can practice your religion, among others doing the same. You can learn things about yourself and who you want to be by choosing in these circumstances, especially the ones that seem to bother you.

You have done a lot of thinking...and actually expressed things very, very well. This part struck me particularly:
Kipper wrote:
19 Jun 2018, 12:51
There's no concern or interest, it's just like I've crossed some line and by default I'm on my own. I'm sure we all have our turning point and mine might not be the most hurtful but for me there is a clear and painful defining point when the demands of progressing and being an active "appointee" in this church took away from me the things that mattered most. Among those things taken away are traditions I spent years building up with my family and son and time spent together. The most agonizing times for me are when I hear we are about family first followed by someone telling me you're son will see you honoring you priesthood and see your example while magnifying your calling.
...I would be happy to go on but I'll stuff it all back inside where it will continue to eat away until the end. In the meantime I'll find ways and things to do that distract me and help me enjoy life. Thanks for allowing the overflow.
Those were some heart-felt words. Very poignant. Thanks for sharing.

There are some similar feelings I've wrestled with. You just said it better.

I had 3 thoughts come to me as I read through this thread:
1) Listen to others without the need to reconcile it to your views. If that is how someone in the stake wants to frame it...that is their thing. It either inspires you, or it doesn't do squat and you just let them do their mormon thing because it makes them happy to say such things. Love them for who they are.

2) Embrace the message, by seeing how it supports your current views.
"...if I ask you to speak in sacrament your answer is to the Lord. He is asking not me. You can say yes or no to him of you want. Same with callings..."
Yes!!! My answer to everyone else is as if I answer to the Lord. I should treat everyone in that light, and I would be a far better person for doing that. Of course, the Lord will understand when I say no...but I always do it respectfully. I have no problems being honest with the Lord who knows my heart. Embrace those teachings fully...to the point that I treat everyone else in a god-like way. I can benefit from this idea on my journey. (even if that is radically different than how the speaker intended...but if that speaks to my spirit...thank God for the message that inspires me to be more loving).

3) let go of the past. Perhaps those TBM thoughts meant something totally different to me before, maybe i would have felt inspired by them before, maybe I feel bored now or that these things are just dead to me now. Yes. All that shows progress and growth. You have grown beyond the things that used to be wonderful to you. Let go of wishing for the past...and focus on today and what you want today in your world. Let go of the past, embrace the present. It's ok to realize it is not the same as it used to be. It would be wrong if it was the same your whole life. But take the things you yearn for now that you feel are missing...and go search for them wherever you find them.

Each Sunday as you find yourself reacting, or having no reaction, to others at church...realize those moments give you opportunities to practice your religion and what you truly want to have faith in, or what you choose to let go of, and find peace in your choices.

Own your religion, and your religious experience. It's between you and god.
Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."

Kipper
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Re: How do I

Post by Kipper » 19 Jun 2018, 20:19

Heber13, There are some thoughts from you that really mean something. I relaxes me to know I need to think about these things and how to make myself fit where needed. This reminds me that you have provided replies in the past that I need to look at again. This time I did express myself a little more honestly than other times.

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