How do I

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Kipper
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How do I

Post by Kipper » 17 Jun 2018, 10:56

Stake pres councillor during GD "...if I ask you to speak in sacrament your answer is to the Lord. He is asking not me. You can say yes or no to him of you want. Same with callings..."

There is always that leverage.

Kipper
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Re: How do I

Post by Kipper » 17 Jun 2018, 12:51

I am at the point where nothing resonates, nothing sinks in, even those things that should. I know it's because of the way I receive teachings and comments now. Everything makes me cringe and it shouldn't. Everybody sounds so dramatic and far fetched. How do I get out of this state of mind. How do I stay in it and not express myself. It turns my stomach.

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dande48
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Re: How do I

Post by dande48 » 17 Jun 2018, 14:47

Not sure if this will help, but there's an old quote that's been on my mind today. It was said by Soren Kierkegaard. He was Christian, but also known as"Father of Existentialism". He said,
"When I became an adult, when I opened my eyes and saw actuality, then I started to laugh and have never stopped laughing since that time. I saw that the meaning of life was to earn a salary, its goal to become a counsellor. That the richest delight of love, was to marry a well-to-do girl. That the blessingof friendship was to help one another in financial difficulties. That wisdom was whatever the majority assumed it to be. That enthusiasm was to give a speech. That courage was to risk being fined ten dollars. That cordiality was to say "Thank you" after a meal. That piety was to go to communion once a year. This I saw, and I laughed."
Kipper wrote:
17 Jun 2018, 12:51
Everything makes me cringe and it shouldn't. Everybody sounds so dramatic and far fetched. How do I get out of this state of mind. How do I stay in it and not express myself.
Laugh.
"The whole world is a comedy to those that think, a tragedy to those that feel." - Horace Walpole

"Even though there are no ways of knowing for sure, there are ways of knowing for pretty sure."
-Lemony Snicket

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SamBee
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Re: How do I

Post by SamBee » 17 Jun 2018, 17:28

I went to a service where the speaker tried to say all callings were from God. I walked out that point - I don't think God would put an active embezzler as ward clerk, a pervert in the primary or a soon-to-be unbeliever as bishop - yet I believe all three have occurred, the latter one more so than the former two thankfully.
DASH1730 "An Area Authority...[was] asked...who...would go to the Telestial kingdom. His answer: "murderers, adulterers and a lot of surprised Mormons!"'
1ST PRES 1978 "[LDS] believe...there is truth in many religions and philosophies...good and great religious leaders... have raised the spiritual, moral, and ethical awareness of their people. When we speak of The [LDS] as the only true church...it is...authorized to administer the ordinances...by Jesus Christ... we do not mean... it is the only teacher of truth."

Curt Sunshine
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Re: How do I

Post by Curt Sunshine » 17 Jun 2018, 19:40

:silent:

People who think they are God bother me, no matter which religion they profess. My last boss was like that. He explicitly said in one meeting that anyone who didn't accept what he and his direct boss said was supporting the evil one.

He is Catholic.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

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On Own Now
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Re: How do I

Post by On Own Now » 18 Jun 2018, 07:03

For me, the secret sauce is how I react to the beliefs of others.

I start from a premise that I don't want others judging me or contradicting my beliefs.

Then I follow this lifestyle: "do to others what you would have them do to you."

Several years ago, I was telling a seminary teacher (who is 10 years my junior) that I was an Atheist. He started to pontificate and suggest to me that I wasn't really an Atheist, and he started going down the line that there really aren't Atheists; at most there are Agnostics - which would be a reminder to me to leave a door open. But, I had to jump in before he got too far and assure him that I am most definitely an Atheist in that I believe there is no God. He was used to hearing people say "I don't believe in God", but when I said, "I believe there is no God" it made him abandon his attempt to define my faith. My take-away from this experience was the realization that people have a strong desire to change the way others think. Yet, I believe what I believe. I shouldn't have to justify it to anyone else or to explain it to anyone else... and I appreciate those who don't judge me for what I believe.

Fast forward to today. I sit in a congregation where most everyone has different beliefs from mine. They don't always agree with each other, but they do have a general belief system. Like you, I cringe at some of the stuff, including the example you gave. But that is their faith. It works for them. I accept that they have the liberty to believe what they want to believe and I support their right to do so. Since I have my own faith, I am not subject to their faith. I treat them with respect. I consider myself a guest in the LDS Church. I don't spend any effort in making their faith and mine align.

Whatever your faith, I suggest making it your own and not worrying about theirs. Paul, in Romans 14, dealt with disparate beliefs and how to get along in spite of them. It's a great read as long as you use the NIV or NRSV. Spoiler: ultimately, it comes down to our own actions, not to fixing others. As Paul said, "The faith that you have, have as your own conviction before God."
"Let us therefore no longer pass judgment on one another, but resolve instead never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of another." --Romans 14:13

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dande48
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Re: How do I

Post by dande48 » 18 Jun 2018, 07:40

On Own Now wrote:
18 Jun 2018, 07:03
Several years ago, I was telling a seminary teacher (who is 10 years my junior) that I was an Atheist. He started to pontificate and suggest to me that I wasn't really an Atheist, and he started going down the line that there really aren't Atheists; at most there are Agnostics.
This is off the original post, but it also bothers me how many people don't understand the difference between Atheist and Agnostic. Both are different points on different spectrums. For the type of belief, the spectrum runs Theist (I believe there is a God)<->Atheist (I do not believe there is a God). For the level of certainty, the spectrum runs Gnostic (I know concerning God) <-> Agnostic (I don't know concerning God).

Therefore, it is possible to be a Theist Agnostic (I believe there is a God, but I don't really know), or a Gnostic Atheist (I know there is no God). When people say there can't really be atheists, they are referring to Atheists with Gnostic claims. Not all atheists are Gnostic, and some agnostics are theists.
"The whole world is a comedy to those that think, a tragedy to those that feel." - Horace Walpole

"Even though there are no ways of knowing for sure, there are ways of knowing for pretty sure."
-Lemony Snicket

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DarkJedi
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Re: How do I

Post by DarkJedi » 18 Jun 2018, 09:46

I like what OON said. I'm not sure I consider myself a guest at the LDS church, but I do sometimes go into observer mode.
Fast forward to today. I sit in a congregation where most everyone has different beliefs from mine. They don't always agree with each other, but they do have a general belief system. Like you, I cringe at some of the stuff, including the example you gave. But that is their faith. It works for them. I accept that they have the liberty to believe what they want to believe and I support their right to do so. Since I have my own faith, I am not subject to their faith. I treat them with respect. I consider myself a guest in the LDS Church. I don't spend any effort in making their faith and mine align.
Just because you believe Adam and Eve to be literal beings who lived 6000 years ago doesn't mean I have to believe it, and I don't. Jonah is the example I like to use. There's no way I am ever going to believe Jonah literally lived in a fish's belly for three days. But I believe in the moral of that story. Another person can take it literally word for word and I can take it completely symbolically/non-literal but we can both get the same message.
Whatever your faith, I suggest making it your own and not worrying about theirs. Paul, in Romans 14, dealt with disparate beliefs and how to get along in spite of them. It's a great read as long as you use the NIV or NRSV. Spoiler: ultimately, it comes down to our own actions, not to fixing others. As Paul said, "The faith that you have, have as your own conviction before God."
Yep. Your faith is between you and God and everyone else's faith is between them and God. I have learned that I needn't be concerned with anyone's faith/belief but my own - and I'm good where I'm at. Going back to the observer mode, I can simply think to myself "That's pretty interesting that the majority here seem to believe that. But I wonder what that guy in the corner who isn't saying anything believes?" I think a common misperception in the church is that we're all supposed to be ginger bread men and women who look, act and believe the same. There is no such doctrine.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

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Roy
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Re: How do I

Post by Roy » 18 Jun 2018, 11:10

dande48 wrote:
18 Jun 2018, 07:40
For the level of certainty, the spectrum runs Gnostic (I know concerning God) <-> Agnostic (I don't know concerning God).

It could be said that one cannot "know" concerning God - however, that would be an ironic point coming from a Mormon. :lol:
Kipper wrote:
17 Jun 2018, 10:56
"...if I ask you to speak in sacrament your answer is to the Lord. He is asking not me. You can say yes or no to him of you want. Same with callings..."
Same months back our former SP and now GD instructor gave a lesson basically admitting to leader fallibility (he often uses some inoculation in his lessons). He was saying that not everything was inspired and that many decisions are made using the best information available. I thought of the old "inspiration vs. desperation" quote for callings and I raised my hand and asked if some callings could be extended just on the basis of matching openings with available ward members. He responded that callings were the exception to what he was talking about. Callings were always inspired. I smiled and nodded as if I had the answer to my question. It appears that we were not ready to have leadership fallibility extend to callings.

I speculate that we want to teach leadership fallibility so that we can be more prone to forgive leaders when they make mistakes.
I speculate that we want to teach the inspiration of callings to motivate people to serve where assigned and to serve better and longer than they otherwise would.
Kipper wrote:
17 Jun 2018, 12:51
How do I get out of this state of mind. How do I stay in it and not express myself.
comments like this bother me too. I recommend setting boundaries and getting some distance. Maybe take a sunday of to go hiking or camping. maybe have a tablet to or e-reader to stay occupied and insulated from bothersome comments. Maybe skip a certain class or intructor/teacher that seems to be a trigger for you. You could hang out in the foyer or go home at that time. One strategy is to pretend that you are an Anthropologist studying the ritualistic patterns of a strange sub-culture.


my $0.02 - your mileage may vary.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13

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DarkJedi
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Re: How do I

Post by DarkJedi » 18 Jun 2018, 11:50

Callings were always inspired. I smiled and nodded as if I had the answer to my question. It appears that we were not ready to have leadership fallibility extend to callings.
There are few things regarding faith, religion and/or the church that I "know." After serving in a couple bishoprics and on the high council, I do know that not all callings are inspired. At least some, maybe even a majority, are inspired. But some are just as Roy said, matching available callings with available resources. I am also willing to admit that just because I do not "feel" the inspiration with a particular person/calling doesn't mean it doesn't exist. After all, I'm not necessarily the one who needs to know if the calling is for that person or not - but that person might need to know.

I'll share a story. A few years back I was asked to extend a call to an early morning seminary teacher. This person was the fourth choice, meaning three people had already turned it down and it was mid August and we were indeed desperate. (Note, at least two of the people who said no had very legitimate reasons even though the bishop, stake presidency, and HC all approved.) She was reluctant at first, and knew at least one person had turned it down. She's a single mom of one student in the class and works full time. She point blank asked me if I knew the calling was inspired and honest person that I am I old her no, I didn't know. She accepted, got sustained, and I set her apart. A few weeks later, after seminary had started, she stood up in F&T meeting and bore her testimony about how this calling was the right thing for her at this time and she was grateful for it (all the while looking directly at me). Here's where the "inspiration" came to me - I didn't know because it wasn't me who needed to believe that, it was her who needed to believe it. And since she did believe it she went on and served to the best of her ability.

Just one other thing I'll say about this. Often our SP will bring names to the HC not knowing the individual or anything about them. They're not looking for us to just approve, they want our input, especially if we do know something about the person. Usually the person is sustained by the HC and the calling is extended - but not always. The HC does often enough express some reservation about a person (she's pregnant, he works out of town all week, etc.) that makes it clear they can't perform the duty of the calling. Sometimes we have debates ("Just because she's a single mother that doesn't preclude her from this calling" "A beard shouldn't prevent him from serving"). Sometimes, it just doesn't "feel" right and members of the HC express that. And sometimes (rarely) a name comes up and it's like "Wow, that's absolutely the right thing" and there's no debate. And sometimes after the council/counsel the SP just says "I think we're going to wait on this" even when the input has been largely positive, and sometimes he says "I feel we should move forward" even when the input has been largely negative. And sometimes he says "Thank you for the input" and moves on (generally no assignment is made when that happens, sometimes it comes up again at a future meeting and sometimes it doesn't). The whole key is, I think, that the SP does not come in the room with his mind made up - and I think that's how a council is supposed to work. (My favorite part is actually when the SP says, "Thank you for your input, we have heard your counsel and we're proposing...." because whenever he has done that it is very clear they did listen.)
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

My Introduction

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