If Church's stance on LGBT persons is an Issue for you, how do you Deal with it?

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Wonnerful
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Re: If Church's stance on Gays is an Issue for you, how do you Deal with it?

Post by Wonnerful » 13 Apr 2018, 17:48

Curt Sunshine wrote:
13 Apr 2018, 13:02
By being a voice of reason within my sphere of influence.

Also, by refusing to use the word "Gays". I would never says "Straights", so I never say "Gays". "Homosexual people" is longer, but it is much more accurate, kind, and non-dismissive in nature. I know you meant NO negativity or disrespect in what you typed, but recognizing the little ways we marginalize is important.
I take your point, but keep in mind that I was saying that "the Church" would use the term "Gays" in a future essay, "the Church," not me ... And if I am not mistaken when I skimmed the LDS book That We May Be One, Tom specifically uses the term gay. So you are right I definitely mean no harm as I support gay rights and gay marriage and the right for "homosexual" people to act on their attractions without shame. (Note: that one person's post said to put "homosexual" in quotes). Or should I change it back to "gay"? I'll let you guys decide at this point.
Last edited by Wonnerful on 13 Apr 2018, 18:04, edited 2 times in total.

Wonnerful
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Joined: 02 Apr 2018, 17:21

Re: If Church's stance on Gays is an Issue for you, how do you Deal with it?

Post by Wonnerful » 13 Apr 2018, 17:52

Curt Sunshine wrote:
13 Apr 2018, 13:02
By being a voice of reason within my sphere of influence.

Also, by refusing to use the word "Gays". I would never says "Straights", so I never say "Gays". "Homosexual people" is longer, but it is much more accurate, kind, and non-dismissive in nature. I know you meant NO negativity or disrespect in what you typed, but recognizing the little ways we marginalize is important.
I also changed the sub heading of my post.

Wonnerful
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Re: If Church's stance on Gays is an Issue for you, how do you Deal with it?

Post by Wonnerful » 13 Apr 2018, 18:01

Beefster wrote:
13 Apr 2018, 17:02
Simple: It's a bad policy from a flawed organization run by flawed people. I don't expect there to be gay sealings, but not labeling them as sinners/apostates and robbing them of their temple recommends wouldn't be too much to ask.

The policies have gotten better over the years (mostly), but the thing is that celibacy will never be satisfying as long as it is forced upon the individual by the organization's expectations. Gay members will forever feel left out. The church obsesses over marriage and families and guess what gay people will never have if they remain celibate? When the very essence of what it means to be a good Mormon is robbed from you by the very institution that gave it, there will be serious issues. While the church might work for a select few gay people, most of them are better off without it IMO.
Wow, that is a really good point. Cuts through all the apologetics and gets to the real issue, how they are made to feel as outside the norm within the social norms the Church sets up.

Then again, as a heterosexual single man over 30 who at this point am pretty sure I don't want kids and don't want to marry, I am not sure I fit the social norms either if I were to return to the Church after resigning.

Curt Sunshine
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Re: If Church's stance on LGBT persons is an Issue for you, how do you Deal with it?

Post by Curt Sunshine » 13 Apr 2018, 23:52

Yes, it is the capitalization of "Gays" that I avoid. The word "gay" is an accepted term, so "gay people" is fine - as is LGBT, LGBTQ, LGBTQ+, etc.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

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DarkJedi
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Re: If Church's stance on Gays is an Issue for you, how do you Deal with it?

Post by DarkJedi » 14 Apr 2018, 04:39

Beefster wrote:
13 Apr 2018, 17:02
Simple: It's a bad policy from a flawed organization run by flawed people. I don't expect there to be gay sealings, but not labeling them as sinners/apostates and robbing them of their temple recommends wouldn't be too much to ask.

The policies have gotten better over the years (mostly), but the thing is that celibacy will never be satisfying as long as it is forced upon the individual by the organization's expectations. Gay members will forever feel left out. The church obsesses over marriage and families and guess what gay people will never have if they remain celibate? When the very essence of what it means to be a good Mormon is robbed from you by the very institution that gave it, there will be serious issues. While the church might work for a select few gay people, most of them are better off without it IMO.
What Beefster said.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

My Introduction

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SamBee
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Re: If Church's stance on LGBT persons is an Issue for you, how do you Deal with it?

Post by SamBee » 14 Apr 2018, 04:48

I hate the term LGBT etc - like a lot of things these terms seem to be pre-set traps. Is LGBTQ? LGBTQIA etc?

If you don't use the correct initials you get set upon.
DASH1730 "An Area Authority...[was] asked...who...would go to the Telestial kingdom. His answer: "murderers, adulterers and a lot of surprised Mormons!"'
1ST PRES 1978 "[LDS] believe...there is truth in many religions and philosophies...good and great religious leaders... have raised the spiritual, moral, and ethical awareness of their people. When we speak of The [LDS] as the only true church...it is...authorized to administer the ordinances...by Jesus Christ... we do not mean... it is the only teacher of truth."

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Beefster
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Re: If Church's stance on LGBT persons is an Issue for you, how do you Deal with it?

Post by Beefster » 14 Apr 2018, 11:22

I sorta don't either, but that's more because I don't think it's accurate to lump in the T with the LGB. Sexual orientation is a totally separate concept from gender identity. I think it's unhelpful to slap a label on "not cisgender and/or not straight" folks even if it is in the name of calling attention to marginalization/discrimination and bringing about positive social change.

One of my sad observations about human nature is that labels tend to be more prescriptive than descriptive. I think when people slap labels on themselves, they run the risk of the label defining them rather than the label describing a trait of theirs. They often fall prey to groupthink as a result and then identity politics (which is really just a fancy name for tribalism, now that I think of it) happen. For example, conservative gay people tend to be quite rare.

I'd much rather avoid labels altogether and simply think of them as people who happen to be attracted to their own sex.
Boys are governed by rules. Men are governed by principles.

Sometimes our journeys take us to unexpected places. That is a truly beautiful thing.

Curt Sunshine
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Re: If Church's stance on LGBT persons is an Issue for you, how do you Deal with it?

Post by Curt Sunshine » 14 Apr 2018, 13:16

Excellent comments, Beefster.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

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mom3
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Re: If Church's stance on LGBT persons is an Issue for you, how do you Deal with it?

Post by mom3 » 15 Apr 2018, 02:43

I work to move the needle of understanding in classes, etc. I watch and time myself carefully, but I have been smilingly vocal about accepting and embracing our non-heterosexual family members.

We have eons of training to overcome. That can take time. I don't love the policy one bit. I also comprehend the generation that made it. I draw on quotes from LDS sources, like the website about loving, connecting and accepting all people.

Baby steps of sincerity can go a long way.
"I stayed because it was God and Jesus Christ that I wanted to follow and be like, not individual human beings." Chieko Okazaki Dialogue interview

"I am coming to envision a new persona for the Church as humble followers of Jesus Christ....Joseph and his early followers came forth with lots of triumphalist rhetoric, but I think we need a new voice, one of humility, friendship and service. We should teach people to believe in God because it will soften their hearts and make them more willing to serve." - Richard Bushman

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SamBee
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Re: If Church's stance on LGBT persons is an Issue for you, how do you Deal with it?

Post by SamBee » 15 Apr 2018, 07:06

I don't deal with it, that's the problem. I tend to try and ignore it.

But I do take a fairly strong view on promiscuity - I get that it's enjoyable, and we all get the urges to do it... but it's also unhygienic and doesn't produce a a stable or happy society in the long run. Promiscuity is a major aspect of gay culture unfortunately, even more so than heterosexual culture.
DASH1730 "An Area Authority...[was] asked...who...would go to the Telestial kingdom. His answer: "murderers, adulterers and a lot of surprised Mormons!"'
1ST PRES 1978 "[LDS] believe...there is truth in many religions and philosophies...good and great religious leaders... have raised the spiritual, moral, and ethical awareness of their people. When we speak of The [LDS] as the only true church...it is...authorized to administer the ordinances...by Jesus Christ... we do not mean... it is the only teacher of truth."

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