Was I really like that? Yes.

Public forum for topics that don't fit into the other categories.
longbottom
Posts: 23
Joined: 25 Sep 2017, 12:50

Re: Was I really like that? Yes.

Post by longbottom » 13 Apr 2018, 19:13

Yes, that's the one.

User avatar
SilentDawning
Posts: 6874
Joined: 09 May 2010, 19:55

Re: Was I really like that? Yes.

Post by SilentDawning » 14 Apr 2018, 10:32

dande48 wrote:
12 Apr 2018, 09:14
The WORST response I have ever had to "coming out" was, "Why don't you just have your name removed from Church records?" And when I explained why, it was used as evidence that deep down I still believed the Church was true.
I had a good friend say that to me. I explained the impact on my family, my children who were believers at the time, and the power of God to change minds over time. The guy who suggested name removal just saw the here and now, and thought I was disloyal. He saw none of the larger surrounding issues .

I used to get offended and almost angry when people came out with unbelieving stuff. I had the attitude to just write them off as well. So, I get it - - some people get offended when you come out with doubting comments. It's like you are attacking their identity, and it can lead to anger.

Now that I have eaten from the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, I would never go judgmental on someone's head because they are having faith or commitment issues. We have a hard church with a lot of flaws -- and sometimes, the church brings this on because of its own behavior! why hold people/doubters accountable for that!
"It doesn't have to be about the Church (church) all the time!" -- SD

"Stage 5 is where you no longer believe the gospel as its literally or traditionally taught. Nonetheless, you find your own way to be active and at peace within it". -- SD

The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."

My introduction: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1576

User avatar
Beefster
Posts: 487
Joined: 04 Aug 2017, 18:38

Re: Was I really like that? Yes.

Post by Beefster » 15 Apr 2018, 13:47

I can tell you that when I first found out that NOMs were a thing, I couldn't quite wrap my mind around the idea of someone who didn't believe but stayed active anyway. Now I'm a lot more empathetic to it, especially when it comes to mixed-faith marriages- something that tends to happen more often than not (AFAICT) when doubts arise. Most TBMs are dismissive of doubts in my experience.

The church would do well to create an open forum for doubters and train the believers to not be dismissive of other people's doubts. Sure, horses and steel in the BoM might not be a big deal to some people, but they are to others.

Transparency would fix a lot of the problems with people leaving the church. A true church should not need to hide the truth about its history or finances to ensure that people stay in it. Those who rely on censorship have no leg to stand on.
Boys are governed by rules. Men are governed by principles.

Sometimes our journeys take us to unexpected places. That is a truly beautiful thing.

User avatar
DarkJedi
Posts: 6085
Joined: 24 Aug 2013, 20:53

Re: Was I really like that? Yes.

Post by DarkJedi » 15 Apr 2018, 15:17

Beefster wrote:
15 Apr 2018, 13:47
The church would do well to create an open forum for doubters and train the believers to not be dismissive of other people's doubts. Sure, horses and steel in the BoM might not be a big deal to some people, but they are to others.
In general the church (as an entity/leadership) fears doubters and TBMs fear doubters. I'm not completely sure why, but I am sure some of it has to do with ignoring the man behind the curtain.

On the other hand, by fearing us they close themselves off to some truths. In that respect I'm not sure they're on the right track.

There is indeed power in the dark side, but there also needs to be balance. That balance is possible but not if the dark side is concealed or hidden. Such imbalance led to the demise of the Jedi.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

My Introduction

User avatar
mom3
Posts: 3660
Joined: 02 Apr 2011, 14:11

Re: Was I really like that? Yes.

Post by mom3 » 15 Apr 2018, 22:16

Beefster wrote:
The church would do well to create an open forum for doubters and train the believers to not be dismissive of other people's doubts. Sure, horses and steel in the BoM might not be a big deal to some people, but they are to others.
Dark Jedi wrote:
In general the church (as an entity/leadership) fears doubters and TBMs fear doubters. I'm not completely sure why, but I am sure some of it has to do with ignoring the man behind the curtain.

On the other hand, by fearing us they close themselves off to some truths. In that respect I'm not sure they're on the right track.

There is indeed power in the dark side, but there also needs to be balance. That balance is possible but not if the dark side is concealed or hidden. Such imbalance led to the demise of the Jedi.
I believe in time the church will have to address the problem. Every need reaches a tipping point. So many families are losing members to faith crisis. I don't go far without hearing someone mention it, whether directly to me or in a lesson. I have tried carefully to broach the subject of listening and understanding, but the retained group isn't ready to hear it.

I get the fear. Especially if your life was working out under the situation of total belief and dedication. We have been raised to fear. The full death drop is scary.

I also believe the problem is being addressed from the bottom up. DJ has son's who know the issues. I have a children who do. If a kid from every faith transition knows the issues, the church can't keep hiding. It's like dandelions, they will keep springing up. I just may not live to see it.
"I stayed because it was God and Jesus Christ that I wanted to follow and be like, not individual human beings." Chieko Okazaki Dialogue interview

"I am coming to envision a new persona for the Church as humble followers of Jesus Christ....Joseph and his early followers came forth with lots of triumphalist rhetoric, but I think we need a new voice, one of humility, friendship and service. We should teach people to believe in God because it will soften their hearts and make them more willing to serve." - Richard Bushman

User avatar
nibbler
Posts: 3761
Joined: 14 Nov 2013, 07:34
Location: Ten miles west of the exact centre of the universe

Re: Was I really like that? Yes.

Post by nibbler » 16 Apr 2018, 04:14

There's also a fear of change. If we openly embrace these issues I think that means we'd have to adapt to become a less narcissistic church. It would be hard to maintain the narrative that dominates every single one of my Sunday experiences (look at us, we're True, and here's the proof) if we acknowledged that our omelette wasn't made without breaking a few eggs.

It would be difficult for people to deal with the implications of stepping away from the "here's proof we're True" identity but we'd also have to figure out a new identity. Currently we spend a great deal of time worshiping the narratives. We've got to replace that with something else.

They were very small steps but the 'ministering' and combined PH change shows that we're at least willing to try a few new things. I think having regular changes like those would go a long way towards helping the church develop a culture of change. Only having small changes occur once every few decades creates a culture where we think we must have already arrived, that things are perfect the way they are, but frequent changes could help create a culture where we're always looking for ways to improve. They could be small changes to help calm worries of the outcomes of larger changes, but increasing the frequency might help the church get used to change, and then once we get used to change we can shift the focus of our meetings away from how great the church is and towards other more productive things.

IMO the question we need to answer with what direction we want to go as a church is, "Okay, the church is true. We've established that. Now what?"
You can't just have your characters announce how they feel... that makes me feel ANGRY!
— Robot Devil

Roy
Posts: 5129
Joined: 07 Oct 2010, 14:16
Location: Pacific Northwest

Re: Was I really like that? Yes.

Post by Roy » 16 Apr 2018, 11:37

nibbler wrote:
16 Apr 2018, 04:14
IMO the question we need to answer with what direction we want to go as a church is, "Okay, the church is true. We've established that. Now what?"
Bishop's answer: "Perfect the saints, redeem the dead, and preach the gospel."

This is why I love the paradigm shift that a "continuing restoration" makes possible. With a full restoration to a perfectly organized primitive church there is nothing to be done but reemphasize the basics. It is looking backwards rather than forwards. It is fundamentalist.

Admittedly, the word restoration itself implies returning to a former state. At least adding the word "continuing" indicates that the church isn't done evolving. That it is not all about resting on our laurels and defending the status quo.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13

User avatar
Gerald
Posts: 361
Joined: 29 Sep 2011, 04:57

Re: Was I really like that? Yes.

Post by Gerald » 16 Apr 2018, 12:32

We had an interesting situation in Church that seems relevant to this thread. A woman was giving a talk about the Proclamation to the Family in sacrament meeting and at one point said something to the effect, "I struggle with the Proclamation's conception of gender. I believe in the Proclamation but I don't understand it completely. I'm still working towards that understanding." Essentially, she was being honest in saying that there were some gaps in her understanding of that document but that she still believed. Afterwards, I overheard a couple discussing her talk and being a bit critical of her "lack of testimony" regarding the Proclamation. One of them even used the word "apostasy" at one point.

I was struck how a fairly honest and heartfelt confession (if that's the right word) of someone's struggle to believe could be interpreted as a sign of disbelief. (This was NOT the majority opinion however. There were far more people praising her candor than criticizing it.) But it does reflect that attitude described in the original post. We have to be 100% or we are somehow less than faithful. I'm not sure that fear is behind it (though it could be). I think it is just an attitude of unquestioning belief that is so all encompassing that it is beyond comprehension that there could be a position that is halfway between full belief and full unbelief.

(By the way, this isn't a comment on the Proclamation per se. It just happened to be the topic of this sister's talk).
So through the dusk of dead, blank-legended And unremunerative years we search to get where life begins, and still we groan because we do not find the living spark where no spark ever was; and thus we die, still searching, like poor old astronomers who totter off to bed and go to sleep, to dream of untriangulated stars.
---Edwin Arlington Robinson---

Post Reply