April 2018 Sunday Afternoon Session (HT/VT End)

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mom3
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Re: April 2018 Sunday Afternoon Session (HT/VT End)

Post by mom3 » 01 Apr 2018, 15:40

I have a nephew on a mission in Russia - this is a stunner. They can't even proselyte there. Wow.
"I stayed because it was God and Jesus Christ that I wanted to follow and be like, not individual human beings." Chieko Okazaki Dialogue interview

"I am coming to envision a new persona for the Church as humble followers of Jesus Christ....Joseph and his early followers came forth with lots of triumphalist rhetoric, but I think we need a new voice, one of humility, friendship and service. We should teach people to believe in God because it will soften their hearts and make them more willing to serve." - Richard Bushman

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dande48
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Re: April 2018 Sunday Afternoon Session (HT/VT End)

Post by dande48 » 01 Apr 2018, 15:53

SilentDawning wrote:
01 Apr 2018, 13:49
Are they reading STayLDS for ideas on how to revamp the church?
I have thought about this lately. While I think many would shy away and dismiss this an an anti-mormon forum without looking. But I'd imagine at least a GA or two would see this as a helpful resource.

Not that I think they inact policy based on what we say, or change their beliefs. But I do think it would help them to understand how we feel.
"The struggle itself towards the heights is enough to fill a man's heart. One must imagine Sisyphus happy. "
-Albert Campus

"Even though there are no ways of knowing for sure, there are ways of knowing for pretty sure."
-Lemony Snicket

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SamBee
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Re: April 2018 Sunday Afternoon Session (HT/VT End)

Post by SamBee » 01 Apr 2018, 15:59

Curt Sunshine wrote:
01 Apr 2018, 14:54
New temples will be built in India and Russia. Wow.

I loved the reactions of members in attendance as temples were announced in the areas where they live. It made me smile and actually laugh.
Stunning although they will have to be aware of religious extremists in both countries.

I do hope in the case of Russia that it might go some way to quietening down relations between the US and Russia. There has been far too much war mongering going on in that direction.
DASH1730 "An Area Authority...[was] asked...who...would go to the Telestial kingdom. His answer: "murderers, adulterers and a lot of surprised Mormons!"'
1ST PRES 1978 "[LDS] believe...there is truth in many religions and philosophies...good and great religious leaders... have raised the spiritual, moral, and ethical awareness of their people. When we speak of The [LDS] as the only true church...it is...authorized to administer the ordinances...by Jesus Christ... we do not mean... it is the only teacher of truth."

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DarkJedi
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Re: April 2018 Sunday Afternoon Session (HT/VT End)

Post by DarkJedi » 01 Apr 2018, 16:03

Beefster wrote:
01 Apr 2018, 15:12
Finally, Cook addressed the elephant in the room with cases of rape! I wish he had been more direct and called a spade a spade, but it's something.
I agree. I'm still scratching my head at "nonconsensual immorality." What the heck is that? If the victim didn't consent it's not immorality on her or his part. But to be honest I was only half listening to him because I didn't want him to spoil my high (mostly brought on by Uchtdorf at that point) so I may have not really been taking his comments in context.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

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SamBee
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Re: April 2018 Sunday Afternoon Session (HT/VT End)

Post by SamBee » 01 Apr 2018, 16:09

DarkJedi wrote:
01 Apr 2018, 16:03
Beefster wrote:
01 Apr 2018, 15:12
Finally, Cook addressed the elephant in the room with cases of rape! I wish he had been more direct and called a spade a spade, but it's something.
I agree. I'm still scratching my head at "nonconsensual immorality." What the heck is that? If the victim didn't consent it's not immorality on her or his part. But to be honest I was only half listening to him because I didn't want him to spoil my high (mostly brought on by Uchtdorf at that point) so I may have not really been taking his comments in context.
If someone rapes you, surely it is immorality on their part? I don't like the phrase personally.
DASH1730 "An Area Authority...[was] asked...who...would go to the Telestial kingdom. His answer: "murderers, adulterers and a lot of surprised Mormons!"'
1ST PRES 1978 "[LDS] believe...there is truth in many religions and philosophies...good and great religious leaders... have raised the spiritual, moral, and ethical awareness of their people. When we speak of The [LDS] as the only true church...it is...authorized to administer the ordinances...by Jesus Christ... we do not mean... it is the only teacher of truth."

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Reuben
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Re: April 2018 Sunday Afternoon Session (HT/VT End)

Post by Reuben » 01 Apr 2018, 17:31

SamBee wrote:
01 Apr 2018, 16:09
DarkJedi wrote:
01 Apr 2018, 16:03
Beefster wrote:
01 Apr 2018, 15:12
Finally, Cook addressed the elephant in the room with cases of rape! I wish he had been more direct and called a spade a spade, but it's something.
I agree. I'm still scratching my head at "nonconsensual immorality." What the heck is that? If the victim didn't consent it's not immorality on her or his part. But to be honest I was only half listening to him because I didn't want him to spoil my high (mostly brought on by Uchtdorf at that point) so I may have not really been taking his comments in context.
If someone rapes you, surely it is immorality on their part? I don't like the phrase personally.
It seems that the focus on the personal purity of the perpetrator has caused them to invent a phrase that would make the victim both invisible and more likely to self-blame. It also doesn't acknowledge the violence of rape. "Oh, gee, I'd better go repent because now I'm immoral." Or maybe they're trying to include all forms of sexual abuse and violence? I don't like this phrase at all. Why not use existing terminology?

It's great that we're talking about it, but do we have to get so weird about it?
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Love before dogma. Truth before loyalty. Knowledge before certainty.

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DarkJedi
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Re: April 2018 Sunday Afternoon Session (HT/VT End)

Post by DarkJedi » 01 Apr 2018, 18:00

SamBee wrote:
01 Apr 2018, 16:09
DarkJedi wrote:
01 Apr 2018, 16:03
Beefster wrote:
01 Apr 2018, 15:12
Finally, Cook addressed the elephant in the room with cases of rape! I wish he had been more direct and called a spade a spade, but it's something.
I agree. I'm still scratching my head at "nonconsensual immorality." What the heck is that? If the victim didn't consent it's not immorality on her or his part. But to be honest I was only half listening to him because I didn't want him to spoil my high (mostly brought on by Uchtdorf at that point) so I may have not really been taking his comments in context.
If someone rapes you, surely it is immorality on their part? I don't like the phrase personally.
Immorality on the part of the rapist, definitely. It could be argued the rapist consents - he's the perpetrator. He agrees to what he's doing, immoral or not. The victim, however, cannot consent and still be a victim. Is that what "nonconsensual" means? I'm just not getting the terminology and think it's a poor term. If he had called it nonconsensual sex I'd be fine with it. But it seem like he's saying the victim is immoral because she was raped and that's just not right.

(Note: I work in a secure detention facility and I'm very aware of the Prison Rape Elimination Act. Essentially no prisoner can consent to sex with anyone, making them all nonconsensual. However I recognize that in some cases this could be nonconsensual immorality because despite the fact they can't legally consent, they can still consent otherwise. That's a legal argument, not a moral argument. And I should also note that not all rapists under PREA are male and not all victims are female, especially true since I work in a male facility.)
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

My Introduction

Roadrunner
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Re: April 2018 Sunday Afternoon Session (HT/VT End)

Post by Roadrunner » 01 Apr 2018, 19:43

DarkJedi wrote:
01 Apr 2018, 16:03
I'm still scratching my head at "nonconsensual immorality." What the heck is that?
Elder Cook has something against culturally accepted phrases when he deems them counter-Gospel. I was in a meeting with him once when he instructed us all to not use the phrase “coming out.” It was to be called “self declaration.”

Curt Sunshine
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Re: April 2018 Sunday Afternoon Session (HT/VT End)

Post by Curt Sunshine » 01 Apr 2018, 19:49

Yeah, "non-consensual immorality" is the one part that jarred the most for me in the entire conference.

I just think people try to create words when they aren't comfortable with existing words - or when they see a distinction not addressed with existing words - or are trying to cover lots of slightly varying situations with one phrase. This one was a real clunker for me, and I wish he hadn't used it.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

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LookingHard
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Re: April 2018 Sunday Afternoon Session (HT/VT End)

Post by LookingHard » 02 Apr 2018, 04:04

Roadrunner wrote:
01 Apr 2018, 19:43
DarkJedi wrote:
01 Apr 2018, 16:03
I'm still scratching my head at "nonconsensual immorality." What the heck is that?
Elder Cook has something against culturally accepted phrases when he deems them counter-Gospel. I was in a meeting with him once when he instructed us all to not use the phrase “coming out.” It was to be called “self declaration.”
Can't call a gay person a gay person, but "struggling with same sex attraction." Can't use a term pre-1940's for "necking" and "petting". Can't say masturbation but we have to talk about little factories. Can't say rape is rape, but "nonconsecsual immorality".

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