Joseph Bishop (old MTC president sexual assaulting sister missionaries) situation

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Always Thinking
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Joseph Bishop (old MTC president sexual assaulting sister missionaries) situation

Post by Always Thinking » 24 Mar 2018, 09:59

I've noticed no one else has posted about it. Hopefully it's allowed? I know it's been bothering me. If we don't rant, I'm assuming it would be okay to talk about it. I mainly just want to see if it's bothering you all too, and if not, how are you reconciling it personally?

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dande48
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Re: Joseph Bishop (old MTC president sexual assaulting sister missionaries) situation

Post by dande48 » 24 Mar 2018, 10:56

It's absolutely horrific what Joseph Bishop did (allegedly - DJ is right), but it's not the first time I'm come across that sort of situation. I've known a couple of MPs to have done some terrible things; who were later excommunicated, once the area authorities got past their "I can't possibly believe that" frame of mind. Not to mention, an old friend of mine was raped by his LDS appointed scoutmaster. I remember coming across this when I was a TBM, and rationalizing that God appoints the Church leaders, but still allows their agency, which they can use to do terrible things, if they choose.

Now, I STRONGLY feel everyone in the Church needs to come to terms, that just because someone ends up in a calling, "by revelation and through the authority of God", doesn't mean they are good, inspired, worthy people. While praying about callings gives a wonderful time to reflect and sort things through in your mind, it does NOT give any guarantee you'll come to the right conclusion.
Pascal wrote:"Nothing is surer than people will be weak"
I really think we need to build up the Church and even society under that premise. While I think "confessions" and private counselling are important, I really think we should bring back Catholic, confessionals. The "priest" and patron sit in their separate booths, divided by a wall, where you can spill everything without fear of outside acknowledgement or retribution. For all other clergy meetings, they should be either public or recorded.
Last edited by dande48 on 24 Mar 2018, 15:44, edited 4 times in total.
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DarkJedi
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Re: Joseph Bishop (old MTC president sexual assaulting sister missionaries) situation

Post by DarkJedi » 24 Mar 2018, 11:02

He was president of the MTC when I was there, but the only think I remember about him was the Lamanite's guarding the MTC story, which I was skeptical of even then (much more so now, though).

I do know of real people where abuse has been "covered up" by the church so I know it happens. When the story first broke, I wondered the usual things - why so long, why only one, etc. And, the guy is senile now and can't defend himself. But now there are two which makes it more credible IMO (not that we shouldn't believe just one, but the guy has been in leadership a long time and if he's prone to this it seems like there'd be several). Like all things, I don't think this should be tried in the media and he, like all Americans, is innocent until proven guilty. The reports that the church knew about both, although also apparently much later, is troubling.

This is probably all I will say about it for fear of being accused of being sexist or apologetic for the church, both of which have happened. I'm just stating my opinion like everybody else who might post - I wondered at first, I'm more convinced now, but either way I believe if it did happen it's deplorable and should be punished no matter how old and senile he is.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

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SamBee
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Re: Joseph Bishop (old MTC president sexual assaulting sister missionaries) situation

Post by SamBee » 24 Mar 2018, 13:07

Deseret have pulled all of his books, a decision I completely understand.

As for the rest, it's disgusting.
DASH1730 "An Area Authority...[was] asked...who...would go to the Telestial kingdom. His answer: "murderers, adulterers and a lot of surprised Mormons!"'
1ST PRES 1978 "[LDS] believe...there is truth in many religions and philosophies...good and great religious leaders... have raised the spiritual, moral, and ethical awareness of their people. When we speak of The [LDS] as the only true church...it is...authorized to administer the ordinances...by Jesus Christ... we do not mean... it is the only teacher of truth."

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hawkgrrrl
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Re: Joseph Bishop (old MTC president sexual assaulting sister missionaries) situation

Post by hawkgrrrl » 24 Mar 2018, 16:46

I find it very disturbing that Sam Young who started a petition to cease youth interviews behind closed doors with bishops is being threatened with church discipline. He has 13,000 signatures. All he wants is to end a practice that has resulted in hundreds of documented (yet not verified) cases of abuse. When the church sides with status quo and leaders over victims, it's not on the side of right. Being a victim doesn't automatically mean you are at odds with the church. It's only when the church sides with abusers that such is the case.

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SamBee
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Re: Joseph Bishop (old MTC president sexual assaulting sister missionaries) situation

Post by SamBee » 24 Mar 2018, 18:22

I agree Hawkgrrrl.
DASH1730 "An Area Authority...[was] asked...who...would go to the Telestial kingdom. His answer: "murderers, adulterers and a lot of surprised Mormons!"'
1ST PRES 1978 "[LDS] believe...there is truth in many religions and philosophies...good and great religious leaders... have raised the spiritual, moral, and ethical awareness of their people. When we speak of The [LDS] as the only true church...it is...authorized to administer the ordinances...by Jesus Christ... we do not mean... it is the only teacher of truth."

GBSmith
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Re: Joseph Bishop (old MTC president sexual assaulting sister missionaries) situation

Post by GBSmith » 24 Mar 2018, 21:05

What I find hard to reconcile is Bishop's success, by his account, as a mission president in Argentina and in other high church callings and his admitted abuse of women over the years. Is this a case of repentance, forgiveness, and blessings alternating with transgression or is it priesthood actions being recognized by God in spite of the holders personal unworthiness?

Cnsl1
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Re: Joseph Bishop (old MTC president sexual assaulting sister missionaries) situation

Post by Cnsl1 » 27 Mar 2018, 01:15

I'm still having trouble with this one, and have gone back and forth as to what Bishop may or may not have done, and to what degree he was manipulated in that ersatz interview. It seems clear he's not innocent, but exactly how awful might be debatable. In this day and age, we're very quick to jump on the bandwagon and grab our pitch forks to slay the abuser, but let's remember we're still in the land that demands guilt be proven. It's tough that even completely innocent folks can have their lives changed by an untrue accusation. Many of us so badly want to see the church take one in the face, and so many of us want every abuser to suffer for the pain we've felt or seen in our loved ones that we become like those we complain about on here... Categorical, closed to alternative explanations, and full of confirmation bias.

I'd encourage everyone to hold off judgment, and if you care enough to have an opinion, try to disprove your initial thought on the matter. Seem evidence that disconfirms your belief.

Then if he still floats, string him up!! ;)

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LookingHard
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Re: Joseph Bishop (old MTC president sexual assaulting sister missionaries) situation

Post by LookingHard » 27 Mar 2018, 04:01

Cnsl1 wrote:
27 Mar 2018, 01:15
I'm still having trouble with this one, and have gone back and forth as to what Bishop may or may not have done, and to what degree he was manipulated in that ersatz interview. It seems clear he's not innocent, but exactly how awful might be debatable. In this day and age, we're very quick to jump on the bandwagon and grab our pitch forks to slay the abuser, but let's remember we're still in the land that demands guilt be proven. It's tough that even completely innocent folks can have their lives changed by an untrue accusation. Many of us so badly want to see the church take one in the face, and so many of us want every abuser to suffer for the pain we've felt or seen in our loved ones that we become like those we complain about on here... Categorical, closed to alternative explanations, and full of confirmation bias.

I'd encourage everyone to hold off judgment, and if you care enough to have an opinion, try to disprove your initial thought on the matter. Seem evidence that disconfirms your belief.

Then if he still floats, string him up!! ;)
I think the issue is not Bishop as much as a system that allows someone like him, that is aligdly (by his own words in the recording) sexually assaulting people and he just keeps getting promoted decade after decade. It feels like if you say the right thing, born in the right family, have the right haircut, act like you are church broke - then any warning signs will be completely ignored.

But don't get me started on the church's response. They start by discounting the victim (she didn't serve a FULL mission, she is no longer a member) and then being 2 faced and saying things like we turned the issue over to the police making is sound like the police didn't find enough evidence. What the police said is they would have pressed charges except the statute of limitations had been exceeded and they deemed the threats by the victim not to be credible. That is disingenuous at least and moves into the realm of spinning normally used in politics. They then go on to mention they don't have the tools to investigate such matters. So the spirit DOESN'T guide even the top church leaders when they make callings - interesting they would admit that. If they really believed the statement they issued then it should be church policy that any accusations of abuse be immediately turned over the law enforcement. Like I said - don't get me started. :twisted:

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dande48
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Re: Joseph Bishop (old MTC president sexual assaulting sister missionaries) situation

Post by dande48 » 27 Mar 2018, 07:35

Cnsl1 wrote:
27 Mar 2018, 01:15
I'm still having trouble with this one, and have gone back and forth as to what Bishop may or may not have done, and to what degree he was manipulated in that ersatz interview. It seems clear he's not innocent, but exactly how awful might be debatable. In this day and age, we're very quick to jump on the bandwagon and grab our pitch forks to slay the abuser, but let's remember we're still in the land that demands guilt be proven. It's tough that even completely innocent folks can have their lives changed by an untrue accusation. Many of us so badly want to see the church take one in the face, and so many of us want every abuser to suffer for the pain we've felt or seen in our loved ones that we become like those we complain about on here... Categorical, closed to alternative explanations, and full of confirmation bias.

I'd encourage everyone to hold off judgment, and if you care enough to have an opinion, try to disprove your initial thought on the matter. Seem evidence that disconfirms your belief.

Then if he still floats, string him up!! ;)
Agreeing with LH on this one. What Bishop might or might not have done is irrelevant. "Stringing him up" will do very little good; Guilty or not, he's not fit to serve in any Church leadership positions, and will die soon enough anyways.

What matters most is that it COULD happen; in all likelihood it DOES happen, and a large part of that stems down to the current policies and not enough safeguards being in place. Church leaders receive "revelation", supposing it to be from God, and trust that their assessments of those men are accurate, and being called by God, aught to be trusted in precarious situations. But this is dangerous...

Since the Church responds to fault by saying "No one is perfect. Even we make mistakes", you would think they'd to a better job of preventing such awful mistakes from happening.
Last edited by dande48 on 27 Mar 2018, 11:18, edited 1 time in total.
"The whole world is a comedy to those that think, a tragedy to those that feel." - Horace Walpole

"Even though there are no ways of knowing for sure, there are ways of knowing for pretty sure."
-Lemony Snicket

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