How much to push son towards early morning seminary

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Beefster
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Re: How much to push son towards early morning seminary

Post by Beefster » 07 Jan 2018, 17:55

Don't push. He'd be wasting his time if he doesn't want to be there.

I learned some cool stuff in early morning. It was hard. I'm not totally sure I'd say it was worth it. It helped me on my mission I guess, but that's only because I paid attention somewhat.

Now it's actually a serious class, so I don't know how much I'd be into it now.
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SamBee
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Re: How much to push son towards early morning seminary

Post by SamBee » 08 Jan 2018, 10:32

NightSG wrote:
07 Jan 2018, 16:50
SamBee wrote:
07 Jan 2018, 10:31
Better for him to serve a mission than go into the military and come back dead or disabled.
Yeah, I bet Elder Patiole's family is thrilled that he got killed on a mission instead of in military service.
Injury, death and PTSD are a lot less likely on a mission.

When I was a teenager I toyed with the idea of joining the army. These three things were a major deterrent. Along with certain other political matters.

I'm actually glad I never did. I met a school friend who had joined the army, I hadn't seen for decades. Although he was physically fit, he was not in the best of mental health and that's putting it mildly. Some of the effects are not obvious, and can come out years later.

We had another guy join our ward some years ago who was ex-military. It had helped turned him into an alcoholic.

Last year we had also had an investigator in the ward. He was in an electric wheelchair, with a brace on his neck, as a result of his tour in Afghanistan.

So I neither joined the army nor went on a mission, but given the choice, I think I'd take the mission.
DASH1730 "An Area Authority...[was] asked...who...would go to the Telestial kingdom. His answer: "murderers, adulterers and a lot of surprised Mormons!"'
1ST PRES 1978 "[LDS] believe...there is truth in many religions and philosophies...good and great religious leaders... have raised the spiritual, moral, and ethical awareness of their people. When we speak of The [LDS] as the only true church...it is...authorized to administer the ordinances...by Jesus Christ... we do not mean... it is the only teacher of truth."

NightSG
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Re: How much to push son towards early morning seminary

Post by NightSG » 08 Jan 2018, 11:03

SamBee wrote:
08 Jan 2018, 10:32
Injury, death and PTSD are a lot less likely on a mission.
Military death rate, all causes: 82/100,000
Missionary death rate: 525/447,969 = 117/100,000 (Unfortunately, the Church, in all its openness, hasn't given these numbers since 1989, so this is a bit out of date.)

I'm curious what happens if you receive an injury causing lifelong disability on a mission. Somehow I doubt it's anywhere near as much as military service-connected disability benefits.

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SamBee
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Re: How much to push son towards early morning seminary

Post by SamBee » 08 Jan 2018, 11:21

I've never met anyone who is permanently disabled as a consequence of going on a mission. Joining the Peace Corps carries perhaps more risk.

Also our homeless shelters are full of ex-military, and we are more likely to get homeless investigators than RMs who end up homeless.

Your military figures exclude non-fatal injuries, PTSD etc.
DASH1730 "An Area Authority...[was] asked...who...would go to the Telestial kingdom. His answer: "murderers, adulterers and a lot of surprised Mormons!"'
1ST PRES 1978 "[LDS] believe...there is truth in many religions and philosophies...good and great religious leaders... have raised the spiritual, moral, and ethical awareness of their people. When we speak of The [LDS] as the only true church...it is...authorized to administer the ordinances...by Jesus Christ... we do not mean... it is the only teacher of truth."

Roadrunner
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Re: How much to push son towards early morning seminary

Post by Roadrunner » 08 Jan 2018, 14:03

All – I appreciate the feedback, I was looking for other points of view or ideas I hadn’t considered and as usual this forum delivers. The consensus is pretty clearly to not force him which I agree with. The fact that my son verbally objects but isn’t actually hard to get out the door makes me think that perhaps he tolerates it more than I think. Or maybe he’s more afraid of me and my wife than I think he is.

My latest idea is to consider letting my son miss more days with the idea that he will make them up later. One extra curricular that he participates in requires insane amount of time. I’m not sure about other stakes, but here most teachers are very liberal in allowing make-up work. In some cases comically easy about make-up days. My good wife is against the idea but she agreed to wait and see whether he objects more strenuously.

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Re: How much to push son towards early morning seminary

Post by Roadrunner » 08 Jan 2018, 14:05

DarkJedi wrote:
07 Jan 2018, 14:00
I am for the most part opposed to early morning seminary as a relic of a bygone era. I understand there are people who love it, or at least say they do (having nothing else to compare it to). There is absolutely NO research to support that it's good for teenagers to get up early and do this, while there is plenty of research to support that teens need more sleep and physically/mentally can't get going that early in the morning. Educators have known this for years.
DJ, this is my belief as well. I asked my stake president with whom I have a good relationship why there aren’t better options for high schoolers. He basically said other options are not provided by the AreaQ70. It sounds like stakes may not have much say over early morning seminary options.

Like DJ, SD, and others have said it’s quite possible that early morning seminary is counter productive and may ultimately drive many youth away. When I think about it too much it makes me sick to my stomach how the church makes decisions…

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Re: How much to push son towards early morning seminary

Post by Roadrunner » 08 Jan 2018, 14:06

SamBee wrote:
08 Jan 2018, 10:32
Injury, death and PTSD are a lot less likely on a mission.
SamBee,
I hear you. My wife is decidedly unhappy with the idea of a military career but I’m ok with it – the opposite of our seminary views. He wants to go the ROTC route and have the military pay for a medical degree. He doesn’t envision being a bullet stopper but of course you never know with the military. Some branches of the military are more dangerous than others and some tracks within the military also more dangerous than others. We live near an Air Force Base and several pilots attend my ward so we see the glamorous side of it. It’s fairly likely he’ll change his mind once he learns more about it.

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Re: How much to push son towards early morning seminary

Post by Curt Sunshine » 08 Jan 2018, 15:18

Military service is brutal in many ways, physically, emotionally, mentally, relationship-wise, etc. Missions can be brutal, as well, but there is a huge difference, overall.

Also, the military death rates are from the American military forces in a time of relative stability, when we haven't had a draft or extensive ground force deployment.

War is Hell. Period. Missions can be Hellish for some people, but missions aren't Hell. Again, there is a huge difference.

[Admin Note]: This topic has nothing to do with the original post. Let's end the discussion. If someone wants to start a new thread about it, go for it.
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SilentDawning
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Re: How much to push son towards early morning seminary

Post by SilentDawning » 11 Jan 2018, 08:49

Beefster wrote:
07 Jan 2018, 17:55
Don't push. He'd be wasting his time if he doesn't want to be there.

I learned some cool stuff in early morning. It was hard. I'm not totally sure I'd say it was worth it. It helped me on my mission I guess, but that's only because I paid attention somewhat.

Now it's actually a serious class, so I don't know how much I'd be into it now.
I'd like to add a different perspective. I joined the church when I was in university so I never attended Seminary. I spent Sundays reading church history, literature, doctrine. When I got on my mission, everyone was surprised at how much I knew about the church for a convert. Also, there were a lot of seminary graduates I served with who said they wish they'd listened more, slept less in class, and did more to prepare themselves for a mission. They didn't seem to be any more knowledgeable than I was.

Where i served my mission, the main knowledge you needed was a) how to respond to anti-Mormon comments (something I don't think are addressed in early morning seminary) b) how to use the scriptures to help people change their behavior in line with the commandments so they could be baptized and c) justifying basic doctrine in the discussions. And I was a successful missionary by most people's standards...

So, I question whether Seminary is even necessary for serving a successful mission -- at least, not so many years of it and in its massive hardship mode. Self-study got me what I needed. Granted, certain countries require you to be a Seminary graduate to be a minister in their country, so you will miss out on certain exotic foreign missions, but overall, I question the efficacy of early morning seminary, particularly when you can get the knowledge many other ways...
"It doesn't have to be about the Church (church) all the time!" -- SD

"Stage 5 is where you no longer believe the gospel as its literally or traditionally taught. Nonetheless, you find your own way to be active and at peace within it". -- SD

The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."

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Heber13
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Re: How much to push son towards early morning seminary

Post by Heber13 » 11 Jan 2018, 14:32

Of my 4 kids, my oldest graduated, and my youngest (14) goes every day, gets himself up, and is out the door on time.

Of my 4 step-children, 2 graduated seminary, 1 attended but did not have the attendance to graduate because of health related problems and we did not push to have him spend time on make up work...but focused on his school grades and university. The youngest (15) attends with my son, and they support each other in going every day.

My son who is on a mission now regrets that he didn't graduate seminary, but is making up for it on his mission studying things...so it is never "all is lost" kind of thing...you can always make up what you miss in seminary...it isn't the end of the world. He went his freshman year, and senior year as he prepared for his mission. The middle years were a lot of family transition and back and forth during divorce and family home splitting. Under the circumstances...I gave some slack to help stay close to the kids and not force them or push them to the point it was causing more conflict in the home.

So...we've had lots of scenarios or various attendance and graduating, and not.

Overall..with each child...I did not feel a compulsion to require them. But "push"...yes...kids need to be pushed or they will do the least amount required of them (in general, in many areas...not always in all areas). When the pushing goes beyond limits ... it can be destructive. I had to check myself as a parent it wasn't my wishes they live up to what I wanted them to be...but good parenting on what is good for them, regardless of their choices to believe what they will choose to believe. Even still...they don't know what they don't know...and need to have some exposure and experience to things to even know what they like or don't, or what makes sense to them or not. There is some pull as they live in the family with the things our family does or doesn't do.

So...my advice is to take into account the needs and situation, and in some ways push for the right results you feel are most important. Perhaps there is some give and take and agreements involved...but it is not wrong to say something like "since you are living under our roof, we ask you to do some basic things...including going to church, youth activities (mostly), seminary, and school and extra-curricular activities."

From there...if they can show you they want to TRADE UP on some things...because they are so busy with other good things in school or with their time, you can give on seminary...that may be best to help their development and keep peace in the home. Sleeping in, getting bad grades, and playing video games all the time they want to because it is what they want is too far in giving in.

I would think it should be more than just "I hate seminary." To me...that's not enough by itself. But...we don't need to stress out our kids and have them getting so little sleep they can't function. So there are lots of factors that play into it.

The benefits of seminary for my son right now who really likes it:
1. Socialization;
2. Learning (we have a great teacher who loves him and makes him feel good about himself) - he likes how he starts his day with positive thoughts from scripture and gospel lessons;
3. Gets him to school on time every day (they meet across the street from the high school and walk over after);
4. It should help his applications to subsidized church schools.

As a parent...I think it is good we start from the expectation they will go, like it or not, it is good for them. But...I can be flexible to needs and give if they are going to be doing other good things in school with their time that helps develop them and helps them prepare for their future. Certainly...some situations will seem to allow it to give on seminary.

Prioritize what is best for your son, and help him see he needs to have good things in his life, wherever you can find those things. If not this, then something else...but trade up to the best situation for your family.

As I said...we've had various attendance...and in the end as they grow up...there is nothing that says one way is better. My son who didn't attend, still went on a mission, and that makes him happy. I could see military being an option, or like my step-son...he goes to university and attends institute. They go on with their lives and have multiple chances to learn. As parents...we want to keep as many doors open for them as possible, in a supportive way...not forcing them to be what I want them to be...but coaching through making them do hard things sometimes when it helps them.

I hope that helps.
Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."

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