Priests to be able to perform baptisms for the dead

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Roadrunner
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Re: Priests to be able to perform baptisms for the dead

Post by Roadrunner » 15 Dec 2017, 13:01

SamBee wrote:
15 Dec 2017, 11:57
All in all this is a good thing I think. Young men baptising young women? Well, you think our official missionaries never get crushes? I'm sure they do.
Of course they get crushes. Here's the thing - my 17 year old daughter is sexually harassed literally every day by a 17 year old boy and member be of our ward. He hugs her every time he sees her, he talks about porn in a joking way, and he all around is a creep for her. The other adults in the ward adore this guy because he puts on a good show of righteousness but my daughter hates him.

I guarantee his happens in virtually every ward in the church. I've personally heard a Deacon say "I want to f### her brains out" while sitting on a temple bench waiting for his turn in the font while observing an girl being baptized.

"This happens everywhere" is not a good way to make policy. 16 year old boys are not emotionally mature enough to be spiritually intimate with girls. My daughter would have no recourse but to let herself be baptized by his creep. And yes it probably happens all the time with adults but it doesn't make it right.


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hawkgrrrl
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Re: Priests to be able to perform baptisms for the dead

Post by hawkgrrrl » 15 Dec 2017, 16:12

This will prepare our YW for the lifetime of menial tasks the church expects of them.

Roy
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Re: Priests to be able to perform baptisms for the dead

Post by Roy » 17 Dec 2017, 11:36

nibbler wrote:
14 Dec 2017, 19:55
1) To cover the needs. How often has this happened in your quorum:

We need nine (or whatever it's up to now) priesthood brethren that are endowed to help with our youth baptism night. Are there any volunteers? Ok, that's seven. Are there any more? Bueller... Bueller.

2) I think leaders also view it as something that will help with youth retention. This will give the youth experiences of serving in the temple and maybe the thought is that will make them more likely to serve missions and stay active once they turn 18.
I agree with Nibbler. It will help with logistics and it may help give these young men a task and helping them feel important and needed in the church community. It may also give them spiritual temple experiences that tie them into becoming more temple Mormons.

I find it somewhat ironic that the down side is that this move is yet again not fair or equal to the YW. It has been my experience that men are valued more than the women. Partly because men are potential leaders - women are parishioners or congregants that must be led. It takes men to staff and run the church. There has always seemed to be a surplus of women in the church. Third is that I anecdotally understand the faith crisis wave to be hitting men much more often than women.

It almost seems like reverse ladies night at the club. The guys receive a carrot to come or to stay. The women have to pay their own way.
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Curt Sunshine
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Re: Priests to be able to perform baptisms for the dead

Post by Curt Sunshine » 17 Dec 2017, 13:37

I like it.

I hope the next move is to allow women and girls to be baptism witnesses, particularly temple endowed women. I see no logical or theological reason for that restriction. It also would remove the impression of only letting girls help with the laundry.
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Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

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mom3
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Re: Priests to be able to perform baptisms for the dead

Post by mom3 » 17 Dec 2017, 23:20

They read it today. The gasp was crazy. I forget I am on the "knowledge" side of the fence. So while I am rolling my eyes, everyone else is all "oh, ah, wow."

But then when the meeting broke no one was talking about it.
"I stayed because it was God and Jesus Christ that I wanted to follow and be like, not individual human beings." Chieko Okazaki Dialogue interview

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hawkgrrrl
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Re: Priests to be able to perform baptisms for the dead

Post by hawkgrrrl » 19 Dec 2017, 16:17

It almost seems like reverse ladies night at the club. The guys receive a carrot to come or to stay. The women have to pay their own way.
With a ten drink minimum!

Great analogy.

My top observations on this change:
1) it sounds like they don't have enough elderly workers on hand in all the temples
2) some are worried about the YM making the YW uncomfortable or there being too much hormonal awkwardness, and maybe that's true, although we had pool parties when I was that age, so I don't think it's a huge risk. It would take a nuclear holocaust to render those double knit polyester jumpsuits immodest.
3) this doesn't actually create new sexist distinctions, just brings to light that women could literally disappear from the church and things would merrily roll along without us.
4) it was interesting to read that eliminating women as witnesses was a relatively recent change, mid-20th century under Joseph F Smith who felt that pretty much anything "important" or "necessary" needed to be done by men to avoid grody girl cooties.

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LookingHard
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Re: Priests to be able to perform baptisms for the dead

Post by LookingHard » 19 Dec 2017, 20:21

Definitely a good analogy of "ladies night" - and for the same reasons. The clubs want more women to come. The church is clearly having issues with men dropping out of the church (go visit almost any singles ward). Just in this case they are not trying to get someone drunk, but get someone to dunk. (OK, bad bad pun).

I have heard grumblings that a lot of temples are closing longer than normal for "cleaning/maintenance". Not sure if I have visibility if that is true or not.

The jumpsuits in the local temple where I am at certainly has the thick jumpsuits that could make the 3 breasted lady in Total Recall seem normal (and they hold about 10 pounds of water when fully wet. But I have heard some comments that this isn't the case everywhere.

And I too found it interesting that it was in my parent's lifetime that women where witnesses. I did see someone mentioned that we are all baptized to be "witnesses in all places and at all times" (except the temple).

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nibbler
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Re: Priests to be able to perform baptisms for the dead

Post by nibbler » 20 Dec 2017, 07:43

LookingHard wrote:
19 Dec 2017, 20:21
I have heard grumblings that a lot of temples are closing longer than normal for "cleaning/maintenance". Not sure if I have visibility if that is true or not.
I read somewhere that several temples that were built around the same time were closed or closing for extensive maintenance (1+ years). I can't remember where I read it, and as always, grain of salt. It could be that a bad batch of the cookie-cutter temples were built, making structural issues (or whatever) a problem across multiple temples.

And the church being the church I can't help but wonder whether investing X million dollars in renovations was worth it to:

1) Get the members to flood the temple in the months leading up to closure.
2) An opportunity to have another open house missionary opportunity. Once the temple is well established in an area it's forever closed to the public, which generates curiosity. Renovations that are extensive enough to require rededication can serve as a once in a generation or two opportunity to open the temple to the public. Missionary opportunities aplenty.
3) Once the temple opens after a long closure temple starved members keep it busy for a while. Or members come out to see the "new" temple. Kinda like the new temple videos. Something new to check out to spark some interest among the members.

So how much is all that worth? $50 million in renovations to reignite interest in the temple among members in an area and to have a missionary opportunity? $100 million? I guess it depends on how much disposable income you have.

But those are my guesses. There likely may be some structural issue with the cookie-cutter temples and absence makes the heart grow fonder so taking a temple off the table for a few years may make a poorly attended temple be more appreciated (attended) in the future.
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LookingHard
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Re: Priests to be able to perform baptisms for the dead

Post by LookingHard » 20 Dec 2017, 08:57

Wouldn't it be cheaper to allow a few dollar deduction from your tithing each time you attend the temple?

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