Hamula revisited

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SamBee
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Hamula revisited

Post by SamBee » 05 Dec 2017, 05:05

I didn't know if there had been any further developments in the Hamula case, so I decided to look online recently... what I saw was speculation, speculation, speculation...

I think this is the trouble. The church was so vague about what his excommunication was for that the public has been trying to fill in the gaps. And a lot of the speculation is pretty prurient to say the least.

Is this another situation the church has just plain mishandled? Short of Mr Hamula himself making a statement - which he hasn't - it has actually resulted in a form of character assassination. While it is possible he is guilty of one or more of the supposed deeds that I've read about on various forums, it is unlikely he ever did most of what he is being accused of, which ranges from the mild to the practically unforgivable.
DASH1730 "An Area Authority...[was] asked...who...would go to the Telestial kingdom. His answer: "murderers, adulterers and a lot of surprised Mormons!"'
1ST PRES 1978 "[LDS] believe...there is truth in many religions and philosophies...good and great religious leaders... have raised the spiritual, moral, and ethical awareness of their people. When we speak of The [LDS] as the only true church...it is...authorized to administer the ordinances...by Jesus Christ... we do not mean... it is the only teacher of truth."

Curt Sunshine
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Re: Hamula revisited

Post by Curt Sunshine » 05 Dec 2017, 15:06

[Admin Note}: Rather than open another thread about this topic, I am going to paste Sam's comment into a comment on the original thread and bump it up for anyone who wants to discuss it.
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Heber13
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Re: Hamula revisited

Post by Heber13 » 06 Dec 2017, 13:24

[Admin update: I think the thread was locked just to keep topics organized and not repeating.
(See other thread here: James Hamula, First Quorum of the Seventy, Excommunicated)
It is good to have the two threads linked for background for those who want to follow...but sounds like SamB has a new discussion around this topic to have it's own thread and discussion.]


Sam...whatcha got? There seems to be lots of speculation around this...not sure what new details there are.

Is your question more around whether it is worse to say nothing and keep confidential than it is to say something so people don't speculate?

Does the church have a responsibility of keeping gossipers from doing their thang?
Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."

Roy
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Re: Hamula revisited

Post by Roy » 06 Dec 2017, 16:22

Interesting that this has remained quiet. In a world of wikileaks and Mormon leaks it would seem like it would only be a matter of time.

It is probably important to both Bro. Hamula and the church that his case not be used as a tool to discredit the church.
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dande48
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Re: Hamula revisited

Post by dande48 » 06 Dec 2017, 20:43

I agree, secrets hurt. Oftentimes, they hurt more than the truth. In reality, what's the worst it could be?

Here's what we know:
-A disciplinary council convicted him. Meaning chances are he either confessed, or the evidence was strongly against him.
-He's not in prison (that I know of), which rules out sexual assault or pedophilia, which undoubtably WOULD surface and ruin the Church.
-The Church explicitly stated that he was not excommunicated for apostasy or disillusionment.

It would have to be something bad enough to embarass the Church, but not bad enough for the Church to throw him under the bus. My guess, it was either adultry or low-level embezzlement. Both are an embarassment to the Church, and could be easily hushed, but neither puts the Church at legal risk if it was to go public. Still, the imagination paints a far worse picture. I hope we get closure on the situation, for Hamula's sake.
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DarkJedi
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Re: Hamula revisited

Post by DarkJedi » 07 Dec 2017, 06:52

What I am most surprised at is that no family member or other in the know has said anything. That seems to be the way this things usually play out.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

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SamBee
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Re: Hamula revisited

Post by SamBee » 07 Dec 2017, 09:58

What interested me is that - in the eyes of the world - they discounted what would be one of the mildest things, i.e. apostasy. Church members might not like it, but non-members would have been okay with it and would have concentrated on that instead.

From the vantage of a few months down the line, they've essentially opened him up to all kinds of financial and sexual speculation - most, if not all of which, he wouldn't have been involved in. It's actually resulted in a kind of character assassination. If they had left out the "not apostasy" clause, I doubt most of this speculation would happen.

The whole thing strikes me as being as inept as the gay parent announcement. Except that after a while they haven't released any retractions or clarifications, because this really falls on one person. And it must still hurt him.

If this is all to make one person repent - they've actually done more permament damage to him than he could have done to them. I've no idea if he's been rebaptized, but any kind of readmission to Mormon society will be difficult.
DASH1730 "An Area Authority...[was] asked...who...would go to the Telestial kingdom. His answer: "murderers, adulterers and a lot of surprised Mormons!"'
1ST PRES 1978 "[LDS] believe...there is truth in many religions and philosophies...good and great religious leaders... have raised the spiritual, moral, and ethical awareness of their people. When we speak of The [LDS] as the only true church...it is...authorized to administer the ordinances...by Jesus Christ... we do not mean... it is the only teacher of truth."

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mom3
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Re: Hamula revisited

Post by mom3 » 07 Dec 2017, 12:05

If this is all to make one person repent - they've actually done more permament damage to him than he could have done to them. I've no idea if he's been rebaptized, but any kind of readmission to Mormon society will be difficult.
I don't know. I get the possibility but I look back at excommunications I have watched. Some were very big in their area. My uncle being one of them. And time mellows things.

As a body of people we are weird. We can be mean on some fronts and chill on others. My Uncle's was massive for our area. Maybe not as big as the September Six. But in our area it was. My aunt moved with the kids. Raised them as a single parent. My Uncle went dormant. My dad met up with him a few times. A dozen or more years passed. One night I am hanging with a new step cousin. My Uncle returned to the fold. Was sealed to someone new. Half the ward and Stake had moved on. Very few people knew his story or even cared about it.

In a weird way he got the better end of the deal than my Aunt did.

The Hamula's maybe the same way.
"I stayed because it was God and Jesus Christ that I wanted to follow and be like, not individual human beings." Chieko Okazaki Dialogue interview

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SamBee
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Re: Hamula revisited

Post by SamBee » 07 Dec 2017, 13:45

I think it depends who they are. I know one guy who's been ex'd and rebap'd this year. I wouldn't have known - he's a low key member.

I imagine your uncle was a big bod in your stake or area, but GAs are a lot higher profile. Your uncle fortunately didn't get international press coverage.

I dare say the memory of this event is fading. But those who take an interest in Mormonism, either as members, exmembers or unhealthily for other reasons, will remember Hamula and continue to speculate. I think there have only been two high level ex's in my lifetime. The other is Lee's, a sad and sorry story if ever there was one, but I suspect Hamula has not done anything on the same level as Lee did.
DASH1730 "An Area Authority...[was] asked...who...would go to the Telestial kingdom. His answer: "murderers, adulterers and a lot of surprised Mormons!"'
1ST PRES 1978 "[LDS] believe...there is truth in many religions and philosophies...good and great religious leaders... have raised the spiritual, moral, and ethical awareness of their people. When we speak of The [LDS] as the only true church...it is...authorized to administer the ordinances...by Jesus Christ... we do not mean... it is the only teacher of truth."

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richalger
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Re: Hamula revisited

Post by richalger » 08 Dec 2017, 16:23

The fact that there has not been any further news about this is good. Elder Hamula was a General Authority and it was dealt with well, I think. It is part of the responsibility when you accept a calling that is so public and in a position of authority. Give the man space to work out what he will.

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