Hamula revisited

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SamBee
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Re: Hamula revisited

Post by SamBee » 08 Dec 2017, 20:45

richalger wrote:
08 Dec 2017, 16:23
The fact that there has not been any further news about this is good. Elder Hamula was a General Authority and it was dealt with well, I think. It is part of the responsibility when you accept a calling that is so public and in a position of authority. Give the man space to work out what he will.
He hasn't been given space though has he?

The church has said "not apostasy", which means the church's enemies (and some members) have been coming up with all kinds of suggestions, including every type of sexual misdemeanor and criminal activity with the exception of murder! I looked to see if there were any further developments, and most of what I saw fell into this category.

If they had *not* excepted apostasy, such people would have concentrated on speculation about that instead of all these things.

Short of the poor man making a personal public statement, he is being condemned for crimes he didn't commit. Including pedophilia - and for the record I do *not* think he ever did such a thing. But there are those out there trying to say that he has and this is what the "not apostasy" statement has resulted in. Nobody is accusing him of murder, thankfully, but given some of the other wild ideas circulating about him, it is amazing they aren't.

The irony is that I suspect he may have done something quite mild in the eyes of the world, but the church has done irreparable damage to him.
DASH1730 "An Area Authority...[was] asked...who...would go to the Telestial kingdom. His answer: "murderers, adulterers and a lot of surprised Mormons!"'
1ST PRES 1978 "[LDS] believe...there is truth in many religions and philosophies...good and great religious leaders... have raised the spiritual, moral, and ethical awareness of their people. When we speak of The [LDS] as the only true church...it is...authorized to administer the ordinances...by Jesus Christ... we do not mean... it is the only teacher of truth."

Curt Sunshine
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Re: Hamula revisited

Post by Curt Sunshine » 08 Dec 2017, 21:11

If they had left out the "not apostasy" clause, I doubt most of this speculation would happen.
Fwiw, I am 100% convinced it would have happened no matter what (that literally anything being said now would have been said no matter what). I've read enough in the ex-Mormon and anti-Mormon world over the years to be sure of that. Also, I still am convinced he wanted to make sure nobody thought he was an apostate. You don't excommunicate a highly-visible GA for no reason or for something minor, and speculation will be rampant any time it happens. All the statement about it not being for apostacy did was remove one of the things about which people are gossipping - and people who won't believe anything the Church says still will gossip about it. The statement primarily was for him, his family, and the active church membership, I believe, not for people who are prone to speculate regardless of what is or isn't said.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

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mom3
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Re: Hamula revisited

Post by mom3 » 08 Dec 2017, 22:32

Give the man space to work out what he will.
Good reminder Rich. The sin of speculation maybe worse the error/choice he made.

It's kind of like that judge not comment.
"I stayed because it was God and Jesus Christ that I wanted to follow and be like, not individual human beings." Chieko Okazaki Dialogue interview

"I am coming to envision a new persona for the Church as humble followers of Jesus Christ....Joseph and his early followers came forth with lots of triumphalist rhetoric, but I think we need a new voice, one of humility, friendship and service. We should teach people to believe in God because it will soften their hearts and make them more willing to serve." - Richard Bushman

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mom3
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Re: Hamula revisited

Post by mom3 » 08 Dec 2017, 22:37

If they had left out the "not apostasy" clause, I doubt most of this speculation would happen.
I have always suspected they said that so the post Mo and other communities wouldn't try to run podcasts and the rest on it. The line closed the door on that activity.

They can speculate all they want, but they can't create a narrative around apostasy.

I had totally forgotten about it till we started this. I know many former members get riled up when the idea of "they can leave, but they can't leave it alone" comes up. It's stuff like this that proves the point. If you're done. Be done. Go find a productive hobby. Learn a new skill. Create something beautiful.

As Pumba would say, "Ya gotta leave your past in the behind."
"I stayed because it was God and Jesus Christ that I wanted to follow and be like, not individual human beings." Chieko Okazaki Dialogue interview

"I am coming to envision a new persona for the Church as humble followers of Jesus Christ....Joseph and his early followers came forth with lots of triumphalist rhetoric, but I think we need a new voice, one of humility, friendship and service. We should teach people to believe in God because it will soften their hearts and make them more willing to serve." - Richard Bushman

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SamBee
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Re: Hamula revisited

Post by SamBee » 09 Dec 2017, 05:07

mom3 wrote:
08 Dec 2017, 22:32
Give the man space to work out what he will.
Good reminder Rich. The sin of speculation maybe worse the error/choice he made.

It's kind of like that judge not comment.
That was my original point! The church has set it up in such a way that people WILL speculate (and have done so) in the worst possible ways.

They've done him no favors. There is almost no way he has done some of the things he is being accused of. God knows how this has affected his mental wellbeing and social standing. The poor man will have to deal with this for years.

No one's "judging" here.

I don't think this is necessarily deliberate on the church's part, just clumsy.
DASH1730 "An Area Authority...[was] asked...who...would go to the Telestial kingdom. His answer: "murderers, adulterers and a lot of surprised Mormons!"'
1ST PRES 1978 "[LDS] believe...there is truth in many religions and philosophies...good and great religious leaders... have raised the spiritual, moral, and ethical awareness of their people. When we speak of The [LDS] as the only true church...it is...authorized to administer the ordinances...by Jesus Christ... we do not mean... it is the only teacher of truth."

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mom3
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Re: Hamula revisited

Post by mom3 » 09 Dec 2017, 14:22

I don't think this is necessarily deliberate on the church's part, just clumsy.
My gripes with PRethren go for miles. This one is another link in the chain. Clumsy is a very kind word. My tongue bleeds every time they take the mic. Forgive me for misunderstanding your intent.
"I stayed because it was God and Jesus Christ that I wanted to follow and be like, not individual human beings." Chieko Okazaki Dialogue interview

"I am coming to envision a new persona for the Church as humble followers of Jesus Christ....Joseph and his early followers came forth with lots of triumphalist rhetoric, but I think we need a new voice, one of humility, friendship and service. We should teach people to believe in God because it will soften their hearts and make them more willing to serve." - Richard Bushman

Curt Sunshine
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Re: Hamula revisited

Post by Curt Sunshine » 09 Dec 2017, 14:56

We just see it differently, Sam. I believe he still believes, so I think they actually did do him a favor by taking apostasy off the table.

As I said, people who are going to speculate will speculate no matter what. Everything that is being thrown around would be thrown around no matter what. Without the statement, apostasy would be perhaps the most common assumption and speculation - and if that hurt the Church in which I think he still believes, he would be devastated much more than by any other speculation.

Again, this is just my opinion, but I do think it is accurate. There probably is no sense continuing to speculate one way or another. I will end simply by pointing out that, without the statement, even we here at StayLDS surely would have been wondering and speculating if he had become disaffected / apostatized. I think I can guarantee that, since the original title of the original post about this situation implied it directly, even with the statement. If I am correct about him and beliefs, that would be his most agonizing Hell - to feel like Alma describing his pre-conversion acitivities in terms of murdering people's spirits.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

GBSmith
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Re: Hamula revisited

Post by GBSmith » 10 Dec 2017, 14:38

I'm of an age when decisions of courts were announced in priesthood meeting and the usual reason given was "conduct unbecoming a member". What I've heard is that what he did wasn't that bad but that someone didn't like him so he was excommunicated. Leadership roulette at the top.

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SamBee
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Re: Hamula revisited

Post by SamBee » 11 Dec 2017, 10:10

GBSmith wrote:
10 Dec 2017, 14:38
I'm of an age when decisions of courts were announced in priesthood meeting and the usual reason given was "conduct unbecoming a member". What I've heard is that what he did wasn't that bad but that someone didn't like him so he was excommunicated. Leadership roulette at the top.
That is one of the other rumors going around... that there was a power struggle. "Conduct unbecoming" could cover anything from a thimble of tequila up to serious crimes.

As I've said above I have a hunch that what he did is nowhere near as bad as some of what he's been accused of.
DASH1730 "An Area Authority...[was] asked...who...would go to the Telestial kingdom. His answer: "murderers, adulterers and a lot of surprised Mormons!"'
1ST PRES 1978 "[LDS] believe...there is truth in many religions and philosophies...good and great religious leaders... have raised the spiritual, moral, and ethical awareness of their people. When we speak of The [LDS] as the only true church...it is...authorized to administer the ordinances...by Jesus Christ... we do not mean... it is the only teacher of truth."

Curt Sunshine
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Posts: 15502
Joined: 21 Oct 2008, 20:24

Re: Hamula revisited

Post by Curt Sunshine » 11 Dec 2017, 19:38

[Admin Note]: This looks like a good time to close this post. Speculation is about the only thing left, and we won't go there more than we already have. The admins and moderators will talk about this and make a consensus decision as quickly as possible.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

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